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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>First of all, I'm glad to hear some responses on AR topics in X3D,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>And esp. glad to hear from Dr. Behr who has done great works in this field.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I understand there are some early implementations from Instant reality on AR visualization using X3D standards, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>and surely the basic functions of the proposed nodes on my side can be achived by </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>similar and more generic functions that Instant reality browser has implemented.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>However, as far as I know, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>the method Dr. Behr mentioned seems specific to the implementation of Instant reality browsers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>and still needs more detailed standardizations in order to be generally used/accepted in other X3D browsers, as well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>(Please correct me if I'm wrong)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>In addition, in my opinion, using generic sensor nodes defers the hardware configuration to the end user, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>and this might be troublesome for the end users who might be not a computer specialist/programmer, but naive users, simply enjoying web surfing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>My point is, in order to stimulate/promote usage of AR/MR contents on the web through Web3D standard, </FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I think we need to standardize AR/MR visualization functions in X3D in a way that </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>would be easy/simple enough for the end users to write/use/access AR/MR contents on X3D browsers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>So that it would be powerful/useful enough to promote using X3D for sharing AR/MR contents on the web,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>instead of distributing individual binary implementations, as we still do until today.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Please understand that I'm not insisting to promote my proposal, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>but I surely want to cooperate with many experts in this field </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>to discuss and foster AR/MR content supports in X3D standard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>So, let us please keep in touch and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>continue to discuss/work together on standardizing AR/MR content supports in X3D.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>At the moment, I would be reviewing the methods Dr. Behr mentioned, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>and see how could we get to a common scheme, easily.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Hope you all have happy holidays!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>And please remember your advices/participations are always welcome.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thank you!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>with warmests regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Gun</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>========================================================</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Gun A. Lee</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Senior Member of Engineering Staff (Ph.D.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Virtual Reality Research Team</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Content Research Division</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Electronics and Telecommunications Research Institute</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Daejon, 305-700, Republic of Korea.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Tel: +82-42-860-5783</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> "Gerard J. Kim" <gjkim@korea.ac.kr><BR><B>From Date:</B> 2009-12-22 PM 1:01:29<BR><B>To:</B> "Johannes Behr" <johannes.behr@igd.fraunhofer.de>, Don Brutzman <brutzman@nps.edu><BR><B>Cc:</B> "korea-chapter@web3d.org" <korea-chapter@web3d.org>, Web3D Consortium Members <consortium@web3d.org>, "KAIST-NPS collaboration" <kaist-nps@movesInstitute.org>, "X3D Graphics member mailing list" <x3d@web3d.org><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Korea-chapter][X3D] minutes from Web3D Korea chapter meeting (revised)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><!-- style> #mailBodyContentDiv { font-family : Dotum, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica ; background-color: #ffffff;font-size:10pt;} #mailBodyContentDiv BODY { background-color: #ffffff;} #mailBodyContentDiv BODY, TD, TH { color: black; font-family: Dotum, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; } #mailBodyContentDiv P { margin: 0px; padding:2px;} </style -->
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<P><FONT face=Arial>Dear all,</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial>I beg to differ a little bit, IMHO (regarding Mixed Reality extensions in x3d).</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial>Among the three things as suggested by Johannes,</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial>- I agree the IO sensors can be used to act like markers or sensed object as if it streams the</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial> tracked data into whatever objects. But it might need to be just extended to accomodate different types</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial> sensors (I am not sure if InstantReality, as it is now, supports anything other than its own marker basd vision library).</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial>- Viewpoint extension seems to be mostly equivalent to what Gun has proposed. It is just a matter of</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial> perhaps detail/syntactical differences ...</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial>- Polygon background seems, again, something, mostly equivalent to what Gun has proposed anyway.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial>So I think they would be useful. What InstantReality proposes or Gun proposes overlap and we need to </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial>maybe get an agreement on the ground functinalities for these and work on some common syntax ...</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial>Gerry Kim.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </P>
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<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT face=Arial>------------ Original Message ------------<BR><B>From :</B> "Johannes Behr"<johannes.behr@igd.fraunhofer.de><BR><B>To :</B> "Don Brutzman" <brutzman@nps.edu><BR><B>Cc :</B> korea-chapter@web3d.org, "Web3D Consortium Members" <consortium@web3d.org>, "KAIST-NPS collaboration" <kaist-nps@movesInstitute.org>, "X3D Graphics member mailing list" <x3d@web3d.org><BR><B>Title :</B> Re: [Korea-chapter] [X3D] minutes from Web3D Korea chapter meeting (revised)<BR><B>Date :</B> Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:36:52 +0100<BR> </FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial>Hi,<BR><BR>I still don't see the need for a specific LiveCamera, LiveViewpoint<BR>and specific AR background.<BR><BR>For basic AR you just need the following:<BR><BR>- Generic Method to stream data (e.g. images) in/out<BR>(http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/IOSensor/)<BR><BR>- Some Simple Viewpoint extension (principielPoint)<BR>(http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/PerspectiveViewpoint/)<BR><BR>- Generic Background which allows you do place and distort a image<BR>(http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/PolygonBackground/)<BR><BR>best regards<BR>johannes<BR><BR><BR>><BR>> 4. Dr. Gun Lee presented an update on his work in Mixed Reality (MR)<BR>> which spans the spectrum from<BR>> - Real environments (real world)<BR>> - Augmented Reality (AR)<BR>> - Augmented Virtuality (AV)<BR>> - Virtual Environments (VE)<BR>><BR>> Many AR applications are now being distributed over the Internet with<BR>> commercial and marketing tie-ins. There are effectively no standards<BR>> in this area. There are some user groups for popular software (for<BR>> example AR Toolkit) but there do not appear to be any standardization<BR>> efforts. X3D and VRML are used by AR loaders, as are Collada and other<BR>> formats. Device setup is often closely tied to hardware drivers and<BR>> specific operating systems or specific codebases, making portability<BR>> and interoperability difficult. Together this makes a good rationale<BR>> for use of X3D to implement AR capabilities.<BR>><BR>> He has done much work in this area, summarized in the slideset.<BR>> Specific X3D extensions include<BR>> - LiveCamera node<BR>> - Background and/or BackgroundTexture node modifications<BR>> - LiveViewpoint<BR>><BR>> We talked about different types of cameras (planar/cylindrical/spherical<BR>> images) that might be used. The options probably deserve further analysis<BR>> as new products and image-processing techniques become widely available.<BR>><BR>> Wondering whether a combination of Background/TextureBackground plus a<BR>> simple Billboard holding a 6-sided IndexedFaceSet might handle most<BR>> combinations of interest? I suspect that there is sufficient generality<BR>> in these already-existing nodes if we map and preprocess LiveCamera imagery<BR>> as a X3DTexture node correctly. In other words, we do not want to create<BR>> new nodes or different solutions for X3D if a good adaptation of existing<BR>> functionality can be found. If there are many variations in the X3D nodeset,<BR>> then it becomes very difficult for browsers to implement everything correctly.<BR>> A tradeoff for a new node might be considered acceptable if it greatly<BR>> simplifies work for authors, without hurting browser builders. "Less is more."<BR>><BR>> Of course these are not design decisions being written here, rather they<BR>> are design guidelines that help new technology eventually get approved as<BR>> X3D additions.<BR>><BR>> Gun Lee also pointed out that Layers might also be of use, particularly<BR>> for display in an immersive multi-sided environment like a CAVE. Also<BR>> worth exploring. (Unfortunately, Layer/Layout support is not yet great<BR>> by X3D players, this is a prerequisite area for implementation/evaluation<BR>> before approving X3D v3.3). Currently implemented support is maintained at<BR>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/Player_support_for_X3D_components<BR>><BR>> We talked for some time about whether a LiveViewpoint node might need<BR>> both projection matrix and rotation. Perhaps projection matrix is not<BR>> needed? Usually only browsers do matrices, and a camera input likely<BR>> only provide orientation (not projection matrix) and an author might<BR>> then display the moving texture onto a properly sized, oriented and<BR>> registered quadrilateral within the scene. Something to consider.<BR>><BR>> Going forward, some suggestions:<BR>><BR>> Wondering about consistency of this work with other approaches proposed<BR>> by Fraunhofer (and perhaps others) in past Web3D Symposium proceedings?<BR>><BR>> Wondering if there are any overlapping goals or capabilities defined<BR>> in the Projective Texture Mapping (PTM) work? There are some similar<BR>> themes, maybe a small amount of co-design might be productive. Whether<BR>> the result is yes or no, the answer is interesting because it helps us<BR>> to convince others that the most distilled and effective recommendations<BR>> have been achieved.<BR>><BR>> Another effort that needs to be better documented is how various browsers<BR>> handle different devices. It is a tradeoff for how much detail is needed,<BR>> with details usually handled by browsers.<BR>><BR>> We should try to compare your nodes to the Camera nodes proposed by NPS<BR>> at the Web3D 2009 Symposium.<BR>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/development/<BR>> then<BR>> Camera Examples<BR>> paper also provided<BR>><BR>> Wondering if you had looked at relative difficulty in implementing these<BR>> by others. One approach is to build a ProtoDeclare that includes a<BR>> Script (and perhaps some native hardware-driver code) to simplify the<BR>> construction of alternative implementations.<BR>><BR>> We discussed how the path to resolve all of these various combinations<BR>> might be to create use cases, with corresponding X3D examples, that show<BR>> how to use these nodes correctly. If any credible use case cannot be<BR>> shown with the X3D extensions, then the challenges are not yet properly<BR>> solved. Once we are close, then codebase variations to refine the final<BR>> result are usually not too complex.<BR>><BR>> And so, it also appears as if some X3D example scenes, with corresponding<BR>> snapshots or videos, might also be of use here.<BR>><BR>> Finally, once again, the X3D group is being presented with some powerful<BR>> new capabilities that are worth refining and considering for inclusion in<BR>> X3D v3.3.<BR>><BR>> Of related interest: "Web3D to Showcase X3D at the AR DevCamp" article at<BR>> http://www.web3d.org/news/permalink/web3d-to-showcase-x3d-at-the-ar-devcamp<BR>><BR>>> “The first Augmented Reality Development Camp (AR DevCamp) will be held<BR>>> on Saturday December 5, 2009 at the Hacker Dojo in Mountain View CA and<BR>>> simultaneously in New York City and around the world!<BR>>> After nearly 20 years in the research labs, Augmented Reality is taking<BR>>> shape as one of the next major waves of Internet innovation, overlaying<BR>>> and infusing the physical world with digital media, information and<BR>>> experiences. AR must be fundamentally open, interoperable, extensible,<BR>>> and accessible to all, so that it can create the kinds of opportunities<BR>>> for expressiveness, communication, business and social good on the web<BR>>> and Internet today. As one step towards this goal of an Open AR web,<BR>>> the AR DevCamp 1.0, will have a full day of technical sessions and<BR>>> hacking opportunities in an open format, BarCamp style. For more<BR>>> information about this camp please visit www.ardevcamp.org.<BR>>><BR>>> Web3D Consortium will be showcasing their open standards X3D<BR>>> implementations for Augmented Reality at this camp. Join us and see<BR>>> how you can use X3D today for your Augmentent Reality needs.<BR>><BR>> ==================================<BR>><BR>> 5. Dr. Byounghyun Yoo presented updates on use of X3D Earth to provide<BR>> a digital globe infrastructure. This work explains and continues to<BR>> extend many achievements he accomplished while working as a postdoctoral<BR>> researcher and then Web3D Fellow while at NPS 2007-2008.<BR>><BR>> http://web3d.org/about/fellowship<BR>><BR>> Particular highlights of this talk show how the X3D Earth effort meet the<BR>> larger requirements of a Digital Earth infrastructure proposed by Al Gore<BR>> a decade ago, overcoming limitations on multiplicity, interoperability,<BR>> openness and equity that constrain other geobrowsers.<BR>><BR>> The visual-debugging video that showed artificial tiling algorithms is<BR>> very powerful and has influenced us to add author-visualization assists<BR>> for various nodes wherever possible in the X3D-Edit tool.<BR>><BR>> ==================================<BR>><BR>> 6. Dr. Don Brutzman presented 3 talks on the following topics<BR>><BR>> - X3D progress and prospects 2009<BR>> - HTML5 and X3D: presented at World Wide WEb Consortium (W2C)<BR>> Technical Plenary and Advisory Committee (TPAC) November 2009<BR>> - X3D-Edit Update: continued improvements in authoring X3D<BR>><BR>> ==================================<BR>><BR>> 7. Pranveer Singh KAIST presented his progress in Parametric Macro<BR>> translation of CAD files into a neutral XML file format which captures<BR>> the CAD authoring history of model creation. The results then go to<BR>> KAIST's Transcad (which licenses ACIS and HOOPS) to create facet data,<BR>> and then through various open-source polygon reduction tools (TETGEN<BR>> and MeshLab) to produce X3D.<BR>><BR>> Are there open-source alternatives to ACIS or HOOPS? Apparently not.<BR>> However, if the X3D boundary represenation (B-Rep) specification were<BR>> released, the neutral XML file might directly produce X3D, which can<BR>> then be decimated and cleaned up.<BR>><BR>> Of further interest is that if the final results are in X3D B-rep form,<BR>> a reverse translation might be possible back into the neutral XML<BR>> parametric-macro format, which could be further run in reverse to<BR>> regenerate CAD files.<BR>><BR>> The polygon refactoring and reduction steps using TETGEN and MeshLab<BR>> are fairly automatic using Pranveer's tool, which he demonstrated.<BR>> This can be released and is likely of broader interest.<BR>><BR>> This is important work which looks increasingly important with each<BR>> successful improvement. I think that the X3D CAD working group will<BR>> be well advised to consider this as an extension to the X3D CAD<BR>> Component which will unlock X3D and a variety of CAD formats,<BR>> perhaps even bidirectionally.<BR>><BR>> ==================================<BR>><BR>> 8. Dr. Kwan-hee Yoo presented conceptual ideas on medical visualization<BR>> that focused on 2D and 3D visualizations, particularly with respect to<BR>> how X3D might work well with the DICOM standard.<BR>><BR>> We looked at the Medical Working Group proposed specification changes:<BR>><BR>> http://www.web3d.org/membership/login/memberwiki/index.php/X3D_v3.3_Specification_Changes#Medical_working_group<BR>> - MedicalInterchange component<BR>> - Texturing3D component additions<BR>> - Volume rendering<BR>> - Annotation component<BR>><BR>> Kwan-Hee's slides might help make an excellent justification for the<BR>> MedicalInterchange component.<BR>><BR>> He will look at these changes to see if they can express his exemplars.<BR>><BR>> We hope to schedule a future teleconference with Medical Working Group<BR>> members on these topics.<BR>><BR>> ==================================<BR>><BR>> 9. Dr. Kwan-hee Yoo presented further conceptual ideas on the potential<BR>> benefits of digital textbooks utilizing X3D. He gave an digital textbook<BR>> demo example with his slides based on the Microsoft WPF format. He also<BR>> listed a set if functions that could be used in this application area.<BR>><BR>> He then gave an X3D demo that illustrated the use of many of these<BR>> functional areas: page turning, book rotation, zooming. The source<BR>> code was provided. Other examples included X3D mixing of Korean text,<BR>> imagery, 3D TouchSensors and video. BS Contact did an excellent job<BR>> on all functions, though Korean text characters appeared to be rendered<BR>> as individual images (rather than geometry) and so was not always clear.<BR>><BR>> He is also looking at SVG possibilities, which has also been proposed:<BR>> http://www.web3d.org/membership/login/memberwiki/index.php/X3D_v3.3_Specification_Changes#SvgTexture_node<BR>><BR>> Some other e-book info is online at<BR>> http://www.free-ebooks-download.org/free-ebook/dotnet/Framework/<BR>> http://publishing.ebookmall.com/information/formats.htm<BR>><BR>> We also talked about how further interoperation with HTML5, and thus<BR>> SVG and MathML, particularly for cross-linking via event passing,<BR>> will greatly facilitate creation of these new multimedia applications<BR>> as deployable Web content/applications.<BR>><BR>> Perhaps the Web Fonts effort in W3C is also becoming of common interest<BR>> since that might help browser companies improve their font support,<BR>> sometimes "for free" if they are operating as a plugin with a browser<BR>> that provides such fonts.<BR>> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-fonts<BR>><BR>> ==================================<BR>><BR>> 10. Dr. Yong-Sang Cho provided an introduction presentation<BR>> for the IMS Global Learning Consortium, online at<BR>> http://www.imsglobal.org<BR>><BR>> Lots of excellent detail in the slides.<BR>><BR>> Learning systems of interest include open-source Sakai and Moodle.<BR>> http://sakaiproject.org<BR>> http://moodle.org<BR>><BR>> They are interested in how X3D might fit into these standards and<BR>> best practices relating to learning management systems. Another<BR>> common interest is the use of X3D with respect to accessibility<BR>> (for access-limited systems).<BR>><BR>> Since the _X3D for Web Authors_ course is online with slides and<BR>> examples and video, perhaps the course material might be moved<BR>> into Sakai (now in use at NPS) for creating a full-capability<BR>> course that is not only about X3D multimedia, but also using<BR>> X3D multimedia as part of the learning management system (LMS).<BR>><BR>> This is an extremely important imperative with W3C WAI (mentioned<BR>> earlier), IMS and Web3D. We will discuss it further in tomorrow's<BR>> meeting.<BR>><BR>> ==================================<BR>><BR>> 11. Dr. Chung-weon Oh presented on Standardization of Web3D GIS.<BR>> He discussed a wide variety of initiatives going on in many different<BR>> standards-related organizations.<BR>><BR>> There was some interest in SEDRIS standards. Of interest is that there<BR>> is a further proposed extension to X3D to match SEDRIS capabilities.<BR>> http://www.igraphics.com/Standards<BR>> http://www.igraphics.com/Standards/EnhancedGeospatialComponent_2007_10_30<BR>><BR>> Interestingly, members of our X3D Earth Working Group are meeting<BR>> with members of the Open Geospatial Consortium (OGC) tomorrow in<BR>> San Francisco. We recently renewed our Liaison Agreement. Our<BR>> primary representative is Mike McCann of MBARI who is also cochair<BR>> of the X3D Earth Working Group.<BR>><BR>> ==================================<BR>><BR>> 12. It is clear that the Korea Group is able to proceed as fast or faster<BR>> than many of the other players in Web3D Consortium. It would be great if<BR>> more partnerships were established with existing or new) members to take<BR>> advantage of their excellent progress, to mutual benefit. Suggestions<BR>> and direct discussions are most welcome.<BR>><BR>> A good approach for getting the Korean Chapter proposals into X3D v3.3:<BR>> - continue using the wiki to get to clarity on each technical approach<BR>> - once mature, turn it into formal specification prose (like the Medical<BR>> example)<BR>><BR>> Links will be announced soon for the presentations given today.<BR>> Further comments are welcome on these minutes for audience questions.<BR>><BR>> There was a tremendous and amazing amount of progress today. Looking<BR>> forward to further dialog and process.<BR>><BR>> all the best, Don<BR>> --<BR>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman@nps.edu<BR>> Watkins 270 MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA work +1.831.656.2149<BR>> X3D, virtual worlds, underwater robots, XMSF http://web.nps.navy.mil/~brutzman<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> X3d mailing list<BR>> X3d@web3d.org<BR>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d_web3d.org<BR><BR>--<BR>Dr. Johannes Behr<BR>Leiter Projektbereich VR<BR><BR>Fraunhofer-Institut f?r Graphische Datenverarbeitung IGD<BR>Fraunhoferstr. 5 | 64283 Darmstadt | Germany<BR>Tel +49 6151 155-510 | Fax +49 6151 155-196<BR>johannes.behr@igd.fraunhofer.de | www.igd.fraunhofer.de<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Korea-chapter mailing list<BR>Korea-chapter@web3d.org<BR>http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/korea-chapter_web3d.org<BR><BR></FONT>
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