<div dir="auto">I think “observe” is more important than observer/observed. I’ve stated this in other ways. But thanks for helping me put into common notions.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">John</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 5:05 AM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div style="word-break:break-word"><div style="line-height:1;padding:0.5em">Hi John,<br><br>Another thought (sorry, you asked for thoughts).<br><br>You wrote: [...]space-time was the older generations interpretation of what they were “seeing,” and there was something more basic creating spacetime, perhaps sensory organs.[...]<br><br>I see it this way: <br><br>Special relativity made space/time depending on the (speed of the) observing matter.<br><br>General relativity made space/time depending on the (mass of the) observed matter.<br><br>In most general case we must model matter/energy and space/time as physical objects, which depend on each other.<br><br>Quantum physics made clear that one cannot separate observer and observed. They depend on each other.<br><br>What would this mean for X3D?<br><br>Good question?<br><br>Have a nice week<br>Christoph<br><br>--<br>Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.</div><div style="line-height:1;padding:0.3em"><div>Am 19.06.22, 00:19 schrieb Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>:</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0.8ex 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
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Now, finally, getting back to your question:
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<br>Do I have a frame of reference?
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<br>The frame of reference is qualified by trust.
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<br>If my mother told me: "this is a teddy bear", then it WAS a teddy bear.
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<br>All these positive experiences made me trust in my own senses and all these exercises at school made me trust in my mind.
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<br>And it made me trust in him, who granted all this.
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<br>Of course, there were times of doubts, times without self confidence and so on.
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<br>And they will come again, no doubt.
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<br>Anyway, the frame of reference is the belief in reality and truth and the belief that we can approach it.
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<br>Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.
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Am 18.06.22, 23:50 schrieb Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>:
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I mean, to get back to objective facts, you will always need a language, if you want to communicate with someone else.
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<br>You cannot just upload meaning to someone's brain.
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<br>language vs. meaning is similar to data vs. information.
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<br>If you want to transmit information, then you have to encode the information and make data from it. You can then transmit the data and at the destination someone else will make information from the data. "Information is what arrives, it's not what is sent".
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<br>Literature is full of descriptions of misconceptions, where cats tried to understand the meaning of dog's wagging their tails.
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<br>As a child you learn the meaning of structures, colours, shapes, sounds and so on from your mother, other relatives and teachers and so on.
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<br>This meaning is also dependent on culture.
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<br>Just a few thoughts
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<br>Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.
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Am 18.06.22, 09:52 schrieb Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>:
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Hi John,
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<br>I am in favour of following explanation:
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<br>Our senses (lower layer) and our mind (higher layer) build together a dynamic "model of the universe" (motu).
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<br>In the beginning of our life this model is small (it comprises more or or less the womb), then the model starts to grow.
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<br>Whenever we encounter a new experience, then we try to match this experience against the motu.
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<br>An experience creates meaning, when it matches well. If there is no match, then the experience doesn't mean anything to us.
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<br>So, because the motu is very personal to each of us, also meaning is a very personal feeling/experience and cannot be described in a scientific (objective) way. It's the domain of art to convey meaning.
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<br>All the best
<br>Christoph
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<br>--
<br>Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.
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Am 18.06.22, 02:28 schrieb John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>:
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I have been following Donald Hoffman, and recently saw a video with him and Lex Fridman, where Donald was suggesting that space-time was the older generations interpretation of what they were “seeing,” and there was something more basic creating spacetime, perhaps sensory organs.
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Today, I saw an interview with Jordan Peterson in Montreal where he said that people saw meaning. I didn’t understand that, but my wife also said she saw meaning.
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I would state that i see color and perhaps depth, if not overlays of color. This goes along with “fragment shaders.”
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So we’re doing good work tackling the semantics of X3D. How does one render meaning though, possibly without relying on words, geometry and texture? Something that a deafblind person might have a clue about? I am pretty clueless about that, probably because i have hypophantasia? Yes, words can elicit multiple meanings, but what about shapes? How does one convert a mesh to meaning without some form of intelligence? Is meaning equivalent to function? Is meaning equivalent to tables?
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My wife is a photographer, so obviously she wants to capture meaning in her pictures. I believe that animators want to capture meaning, or something that’s going on inside our heads, not necessarily something in what used to be called space-time.
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As I step into sign language and tactile sign language, i see even more that seeing is meaning to some people.
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I understand that different views can create different meanings, and the word “view” may have multiple meanings.
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So how about you? Do you have a frame of reference inside spacetime, meaning, or color, or all three when you see? More? A picture is a thousand words? Are we getting more complex than Einstein?
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Your words are welcome!
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John
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