[X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)
Christoph Valentin
christoph.valentin at gmx.at
Mon May 3 11:08:47 PDT 2010
Hi
Do you address me?
No, I dont't think about such details. I just mean a standardized
*interface* between client and server (that may comprise several protocols,
and if I interpret Russ's answer correctly, a standardized interface
existed, but has been abandoned).
No, it's just because I see a use case, that *might* be realistic in *some*
future and that *could* pay off.
Imagine, you are the provider of a multiuser scene and you have two users,
user A (let's call her Alice) and user B (let's call him Bob).
You have found your favourite server operator, Alice wants to meet Bob in
your scene, but Alice prefers browser A and Bob prefers browser B. The
server supports only one of both browsers.
Alice wants to meet Bob in your scene, but it is unfortunately impossible
:-(
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Sun, 2 May 2010 18:51:48 -0700
> Von: John Carlson <john.carlson3 at sbcglobal.net>
> An: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)
>
> What application layer standard would you use? XMPP? HTTP? IRC?
> What standardization is there above the application level? Jingle,
> HTML, X3D, and VRML. I think you're asking to standardize languages,
> like Lojban or something similar.
> John
> On May 2, 2010, at 2:50 AM, Christoph Valentin wrote:
>
>
> > Thanks for the technical hints.
> >
> > And yes: if I were important, I would second your statement that a
> > standardized protocol/interface between client and server would be an
> > asset for X3D.
> >
> > However, commercial companies usually do
> > - what the customer wants
> > - what is the cheapest
> > (in this order)
> >
> > And as long as the customers (i.e. content authors) do not insist in a
> > standardized protocol, there won't be a standardized protocol.
> >
> > it's that easy, imho. Please correct me, if I'm not aware of some
> > details of the X3D history, since I'm more or less a newbie.
> >
> > >
> > > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > > Datum: Sun, 02 May 2010 02:05:20 -0400
> > > Von: "Russ Kinter" <pyth7 at verizon.net>
> > > An: "'Christoph Valentin'" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
> > > CC: "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> > > Betreff: RE: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Christoph Valentin [mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 6:37 AM
> > > To: pyth7 at verizon.net
> > > Cc: X3D-Public at web3d.org
> > > Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > (i.e. Free as in free client AND server)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, I like the Network Sensor concept (due to its
> > > generality), and don't forget:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > * An X3D viewer is not required to support Java (either Internal in a
> > > Script node or external)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > * An X3D viewer is required to support ECMAScript in the Script node
> > > - if the viewer supports the Script node
> > > * An X3D viewer is not required to support external SAI with
> > > ECMAScript
> > > (I copied these sentences from another forum, Author: Leonard Daly)
> > >
> > > When I use network sensors, it's possible to implement rather complex
> > > MU animations/simulations just using ECMAScript, without being
> > > dependent on the SAI/EAI.
> > >
> > >
> > > [Russ Kinter] It’s called cascading.
> > >
> > >
> > > One event from the network has the capability of triggering many
> > > animations..
> > >
> > >
> > > EAI when it is done properly is exactly the same way.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You instance a NetworkSensor Node and I instance a proto that is
> > > acquired by the Java. In both our cases it is the ECMA script that
> > > does most of the work in terms of animations.
> > >
> > >
> > > You are dependent on the X3D browser
> > > implementing NetworkSensor Node to communicate to the server and I
> > > am dependent on a Java Socket and thread. We are both dependent on
> > > some extra feature to talk to the network.
> > >
> > >
> > > The difference is with EAI can do far more - I can communicate with
> > > other Java programs.
> > >
> > >
> > > For example since Instant Player won’t play mp3 files I found
> > > an open-source Java program that can and after writing a faux-Sound
> > > Node I can play mp3 and other audio formats not supported by any X3D
> > > browser in a world.
> > >
> > >
> > > As far as the “mandatory” issue goes, I don’t think
> > > the NetworkSensor is mandatory either at least when I search
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > it can’t be found. So I suggest both means of talking to the
> > > network are optional.
> > >
> > >
> > > Don’t get me wrong the NetworkSensor Node is -or rather- was
> > > a great idea until its protocol was allowed to be made proprietary.
> > > God forbid profits should be missed out on because some amateurs
> > > could possibly write an MU system using the NetworkSensor Node. For
> > > me the whole proprietary protocol issue makes a sham out of claims of
> > > the spec being open-source.
> > >
> > >
> > > Riddle me this: What is part of an open-source spec but isn’t
> > > itself open-source?
> > >
> > >
> > > Russ Kinter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > > > Datum: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:10:05 -0500 (CDT)
> > > > Von: pyth7 at verizon.net
> > > > An: christoph.valentin at gmx.at
> > > > CC: X3D-Public at web3d.org
> > > > Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >is there something else in the standard, that can be used for
> > > > multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To the best of my knowledge no -not as a standard per se.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > However some people have done interesting MU stuff with php:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.x-robot.com/
> > > > http://3dchat.3d-check.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Paul Aslin has something similar as well -it may be the 3dchat
> > > > link.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > (i.e. Free as in free client AND server)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Russ Kinter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Apr 30, 2010 04:23:34 PM, christoph.valentin at gmx.at wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear all
> > > > >
> > > > > I did some private (hobby) studies regarding multiuser mode and
> > > > > rather complex scenes (combining content from different authors)
> > > > > and would like to ask, if you could second my experiences,
> > > > >
> > > > > or if somebody disagrees (the whole project is documented
> > > > > at http://simulrr.wordpress.com).
> > > > >
> > > > > See below
> > > > >
> > > > > I am aware of Network Sensor and DIS, is there something else in
> > > > > the standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides
> > > > > SAI/EAI)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > Christoph
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > BS Contact
> > > > >
> > > > > Supported from the beginning of the project. Multi-user-mode with
> > > > > and BS Collaborate definitively possible.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Octaga
> > > > >
> > > > > Supported from spring 2009 onwards. Multi-user-mode with
> > > > > theoretically possible, but no free test version of collaboration
> > > > > server available -> multi-user-mode cannot be supported
> > > > > currently.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Instant Reality
> > > > >
> > > > > First trials positive. Yet unknown, whether Network Sensor node
> > > > > is supported or not. According to X3D-public mailing list an open
> > > > > source multi-user-framework exists (to be analysed).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Free WRL
> > > > >
> > > > > First trials show, that is not supported → postponed.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Xj3D
> > > > >
> > > > > First trials show, that Xj3D has problems with nested prototypes
> > > > > → postponed.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Vivaty
> > > > >
> > > > > Not available AFAIK
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SwirlX3D
> > > > >
> > > > > First trials not un-positive, but show up problems with
> > > > > viewpoints in prototypes, proximity sensors in prototypes etc.
> > > > > → postponed
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
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> > > > >
> > > > >
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