[X3D-Public] UI Standards. WAS: When will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft

Tue Nov 22 01:38:35 PST 2011

Hi David

Thanks a lot for the links.

About stream package size, we have been discussing it a bit and found that it could be possible to transfere states doing a roughly estimate. Maybee someone would like to help us doing a more accurate estimation of  xml based states transfere rate and possible minimum physical transport layer ( ADSL, Wireless,,, ) to be used.

Note:

- XMPP uses zlib http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0138.html for compression and an estimate compression ratio are presented in http://gnosis.cx/publish/programming/xml_compression.html

- XMPP also uses SLL / TSL http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0035.html to improve security.

and BOSH ( Bidirectional-streams Over Synchronous HTTP ) http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0206.html to use connection over port 80.

OpenNI / NITE http://www.keyboardmods.com/2010/12/howto-kinect-openninite-skeleton.html could IMHO be usefull to support calculation joint rotation for h-amin. Have to look deeper into this.

Once again many thanks for your responce.

/Sven-Erik

________________________________
From: Dave A [dave at realmofconcepts.com]
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 6:13 PM
To: Sven-Erik Tiberg
Cc: x3d-public at 3dnpvei.com; x3d-public at web3d.org
Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] UI Standards. WAS: When will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft

There are google groups for OpenNI http://groups.google.com/group/openni-dev?pli=1 and Kinect http://groups.google.com/group/openkinect

You can put whatever network protocol you want on it, because there is none. Because of the amount of data and the speed you want to move it, I wouldn't wrap it with a verbose language, keep it as compact (binary) as possible.

The PrimeSense and Microsoft libraries are basically device drivers, and OpenNI is an abstraction layer which (in theory) could handle multiple cameras (including stereo cameras), and audio and all that, so it would not require a Kinect.

The NITE component handles the skeletal tracking. So you could map that stuff to HANIM or whatnot.

I've used this with Unity and had skeletal tracking to drive an in-scene avatar working in less than an hour. Drag and drop simplicity. But that's Unity.

Dave A

On 11/21/2011 7:21 AM, Sven-Erik Tiberg wrote:

Hi

Your reply Yvonne Jung yjung at igd.fhg.de<mailto:yjung at igd.fhg.de>:

" Kinect can be used together with Instant Reality:
http://doc.instantreality.org/tutorial/using-openni-devices/ "

made me look into OpenNI as a generic HID interface for Kineckt to any application / network protocol.

IMHO: Open up interesting areas.

Same with your interface for AR ( InstantReality ) to Kineckt and hopefully to more Human Interface devices.

Found a facebook group about OpenNI with a lot of usefull info but missed to save it a favourite, anyone knowing about it.

Presently looking for a XMPP extension to OpenNI, where it could be possible to use HAnim XML schema to define and transfere positions of humans / avatars.

You may excuse me for focusing on XMPP but so far IMHO it fills most of the needs for a MU system even including simulink models with network interface and running in Pseudo RT mode.

Noticed that Haptic3D ( H3D ) can interface XMPP using xmppy lib.

Seems that it's possible to make a powerfull MU system using a lot of OpenSource products and initatives.

And a bit of brain and keyboard efford.

Consider now how to use the h-amin XML chema and if it's possible to reduce the chema för different 3D applications.

BG

/Sven-Erik Tiberg

Lulea Univ. of Technology.

________________________________
From: x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> [x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org>] on behalf of Christoph Valentin [christoph.valentin at gmx.at<mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>]
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 1:21 PM
To: x3d-public at 3dnpvei.com<mailto:x3d-public at 3dnpvei.com>; x3d-public at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] UI Standards. WAS: When will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft

Hi Lauren

Completely agree.

I should have better matched the "Network Sensor" with the "socket interface". Both have nothing to do with the actually used network and transport protocols.

Regarding the MU Server topic, I'd historically match MU Servers with the different Networks (Ethernet, Token Ring, .......), where the network sensor + protocol tbd. would historically match to socket interface + TCP/IP.

However, I'm no prophet, so future will show, if this comparison will have been valid :-)

Thanks
Christoph

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 05:55:34 -0500
Von: "x3d-public" <x3d-public at 3dnpvei.com><mailto:x3d-public at 3dnpvei.com>
An: "'Christoph Valentin'" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at><mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>, x3d-public at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
Betreff: RE: UI Standards. WAS: [X3D-Public] When will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft

Christoph,

You were asking "how far?". And, IOW, my answer was 'that-is-how-far for MU UI standards, but why'. I wanted to help explore what it is you had in mind because I found it intriguing.

>...if the pilot avatar has some properties that mandate to "run" the pilot avatar in a given instance.

I did not mean to completely hijack this thread but, isn't that exactly was MU servers are for? If the avatar is in a different instance then that avatar is no longer pilot, right? You are talking about a MU client-server relationship and that is just what they (the MU servers) help do. Or do I not understand your point correctly?

Likewise, tcp/ip can, like other protocols, be used in the context of a network sensor implementation, or any MU network for that matter (Network Sensor is only a name for a set of agreed-upon implementation parameters and methods. Just another link in the network chain. In and by itself doesn't really do anything. But I digress).

Cheers,
Lauren
3dnpvei.com

From: Christoph Valentin [mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:08 AM
To: x3d-public at 3dnpvei.com<mailto:x3d-public at 3dnpvei.com>
Cc: x3d-public at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: UI Standards. WAS: [X3D-Public] When will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft

Hello Lauren

Thanks for your answers.

ad "Interesting questions. What do you have in mind?":
In his original answer, Dave wrote: "you would need it running a server,
which may be localhost". I'm just thinking the next step: What, if is NOT localhost?
Could have impacts on performance. And what, if the pilot avatar has some
properties that mandate to "run" the pilot avatar in a given instance?

2- X3D is the best example that standardization needs not necessarily preclude innovation,
as long as the standard is flexible and extensible enough.
However, it's always an art of timing (doing it not too early and not too late).

3 - regarding DIS, I'd like to be "blind on that eye" :-)
You know, I'm comparing the network sensor with TCP/IP (regarding its
historical relevance)

All the best
Christoph

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:40:29 -0500
Von: "x3d-public" <x3d-public at 3dnpvei.com><mailto:x3d-public at 3dnpvei.com>
An: "'Christoph Valentin'" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at><mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>, x3d-public at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
Betreff: UI Standards. WAS: [X3D-Public] When will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft

Hello Christoph,

Interesting questions. What do you have in mind? Let me try to answer.

1- Perhaps in a third party view, but then the second browser instance would be controlling the pilot (if there is/was such an impmentation). So what's the difference? I am not sure what you are asking exactly.

2- Good question perhaps. But do we really want avatar user-interface standardization? If you look at the game industry for example, innovations is a driving factor. Wouldn't standardization impede innovation in that regard?

3- I think you may want to look into Distributed Interactive Simulation (DIS) and even Living Worlds for an historical perspective if you haven't (but I suspect you have). There have been some implementation efforts of these and other proposals, but MU user-interface standards??? I would refer back to question #2.

4- You can download Avatar Studio 2 and patch files at officetowers.com (click My Avatar).

Cheers,
Lauren
3dnpvei.com

From: x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> [mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org] On Behalf Of Christoph Valentin
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 12:47 PM
To: Sven-Erik Tiberg; x3d-public at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] When will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft

Hi

Some additional questions/thoughts............

Opinion: The following sentence is true for any Web3D browser and any
multiuser system:
In any X3D/VRML multiuser session with M users and N instances of a
Web3D browser, each (pilot) user controls one pilot avatar and N-1 follower avatars.

Question#1: Can we think of situations, where the pilot avatar and the user do
not share the same instance of the Web3D Browser, but use different instances?

Question#2: How far is the interface between user and his pilot avatar
standardized? Do exist de facto standards?

Question#3: How far is the interface between pilot avatar and his followers
standardized? Do exist de facto standards?

Question#4: Could anybody recommend authoring tools for X3D/VRML avatars?
(pricing according to hobby use cases, it should be flexible and
extensible, fitting to any Web3D browser, best would be open source)

Thanks for your help........

Christoph

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:03:17 +0000
Von: Sven-Erik Tiberg <Sven-Erik.Tiberg at ltu.se><mailto:Sven-Erik.Tiberg at ltu.se>
An: Yvonne Jung <yjung at igd.fhg.de><mailto:yjung at igd.fhg.de>
CC: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org><mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] When will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft
Hi

Open up new possibilities combining kinetik with instant reality AR!
David: you writes about a server can it be a server demon in the same computer that are running Kinetik / OpenNI and a X3D browser or application?
/Sven-Erik

Skickat från min iPhone

17 nov 2011 kl. 20:59 skrev "Yvonne Jung" <yjung at igd.fhg.de><mailto:yjung at igd.fhg.de>:

Hi,

Kinect can be used together with Instant Reality:
http://doc.instantreality.org/tutorial/using-openni-devices/

Regards
Yvonne

Am 17.11.2011 um 19:23 schrieb Dave A <dave at realmofconcepts.com><mailto:dave at realmofconcepts.com>:

I think you would need it running a server, which may be localhost, and talk to that via Ajax or network sensor. Of course if a browser can be extended via DLL, that browser could talk directly to the Kinect, but if you want it multi-platform, local server is the most generic.
OpenNI includes hand tracking. Not sure where they are with finger tracking yet.
OpenCV and OpenNI have been used together for extra tracking goodness.

Dave A

On 11/17/2011 1:50 AM, Sven-Erik Tiberg wrote:
The newly relesed Kinect SDK http://kinectforwindows.org/ seems interesting, but how to connect it to a X3D sceen.
Maybee trough some NetworkSensorNode using some protocol and JScript using libs from http://strophe.im/, or a C++ based X3Dbrowser but then it's limited to that browser.
This will give body gesture control, could it be possible to add OpenCV based code to add hand/finger control.
And can we use "brain position feedback control" to on the fly calibrate positions and will it introduse brain fatigue.

Just some thoughts.

/Sven-Erik

________________________________________
From: x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> [x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org<mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org>] on behalf of Damon H [web3dstudent at gmail.com<mailto:web3dstudent at gmail.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:28 PM
To: John Carlson
Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list
Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] When will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft
This is a step in the right direction.
Microsoft XBox 360 Kinect preview for X3D applications
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNxoPKj5tVs

On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:22 PM, John Carlson <john.carlson3 at sbcglobal.net><mailto:john.carlson3 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62wj8eJ0FHw

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