[x3d-public] [x3dom-developers] [X3D-Public] Prototype
Eric Maranne
eric at geovrml.com
Tue Feb 17 06:32:36 PST 2015
Hi,
my two cents.
CRISE is actually shifting it's EVE training simulation product concept
towards e-learning, hence ... looking for hassle free, pluginless
implementation, easy to stuff in HTML5 authoring tools.
> DON states:
> Just performed a search on the X3D Example Archives and found
<ProtoDeclare name="something"/> 1305 times in 319 files. So they are used.
My numbers: 3806 objects in EVE objects Library, referencing 1689
EXTERNPROTOS, and implementing 2478 PROTOS ...
Amongst them 98 different doors: sliding,..., opening, ... wood, glass,
metal, ..., old style, modern style, navy ship style, plane hangar
style, ammunition storage style, grocery store style, ..., intact,
broken, bombed, messed with, burned on bottom or burned on top, ... with
or without lock (a whole bunch of lock types, classic, bio, ...) ...
each of them having parameters of course (size, opening left/right/up ..
even down :!, sounds, etc.) totalising to an unknown number of
configurations.
TONY says:
><SlidingDoor axis='x' opendistance='.9' opensound='open.wav'
closesound='close.wav' activation='bump' />
>Where 'SlidingDoor' is a 'smart object' consisting of some geometry,
sensor(s), audio node(s), and perhaps even some scripts.
IMO VR needs are asking for more degrees of freedom ... well ... at
least my needs.
Note that, in the old days, an exposed texture node would have been
enough to differentiate many of them, nowadays, it asks for lil more
complex shaders, if one wants an inconspicuous rendering ...
Now, I understand my uses aren't mainstream, but it takes a lot of
different people to make a world of users, and I'm sure DON's 'door'
needs aren't JOE's nor TONY's ... so, one in all ... sure it's possible
to design a door Protos covering all the doors ?
Even if PROTOS aren't easy to build and interoperate between browsers
(been using VR since Worldview BTW Tony, thanks, for it was just great),
when focusing on a single coherent implementation (read plugin ...
unfortunately), it is on a modeler/integrator range of skills... not the
same cost/availability as a seasoned programmer able to deal with polyfills.
Considering the shift in knowledge involved, right now, my choice for
porting EVE framework to pluginless implementation is going towards
EMSCRIPTEN because it enables a Proto/object approach from C++ (or
UNREAL/UNITY from my modelers point of view) ... now, clearly, if X3Dom
supported Protos, I would have favoured X3Dom. Clearly... re-usability,
maintainability, scalability, flexibility, ... availability and cost.
Now an offer of wrapped up 'smart objects' (protos/webcomponents,
whatsoever) has a meaning too, both for ease of use or for market.
Thanks and have a nice day.
Eric.
Le 17/02/2015 02:34, Joe D Williams a écrit :
>> is a real component sufficient ...
>
> From my view the most important item of X3D Proto is that a proper
> instance is totally alive in the event system, like a native node,
> part of event cascade in the event graph.
>
>> what kind of content people really need this parameterised deep copy
>> of application data.
>
> Overall, one of the best uses of proto is shown in introdution of HAnim.
> This allowed most any VRML/X3D browser to produce a realistic
> resizeable model with deep parameterization and predictable animations
> from really pretty simple user code.
> This also highlighted the limits of even highly scripted protos for
> realtime HAnim deformable skin and vertex displacers and even
> stiffness without deep platform support.
>
> So, that is the main idea, like Tony said, make it easy to instantiate
> custom nodes, so we can interactivly experiment with proven existing
> features.
>
> Thanks and Best,
> Joe
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Behr, Johannes"
> <johannes.behr at igd.fraunhofer.de>
> To: "Alan Hudson" <alan at shapeways.com>
> Cc: "Andreas Plesch" <andreasplesch at gmail.com>; "x3d-pulbic mlist"
> <x3d-public at web3d.org>; "x3dom-developer mlist"
> <x3dom-developers at lists.sourceforge.net>
> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 9:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] [x3dom-developers] [X3D-Public] Prototype
>
>
>> I totally agree. I also worked on at least three implementations and
>> it's almost impossible to get the behaviour in a consistent way. The
>> concept is powerful but underspecified and a beast by combining
>> sub-classing and aggregation in a single construct.
>>
>> The questions is, for what kind of content people really need this
>> parameterised deep copy of application data. Or is a real component
>> sufficient.
>>
>> best regards,
>> Johannes
>>
>>> Not too be a hater but I don't think its a good idea to include
>>> PROTO's into X3DOM. The VRML/X3D proto spec + scripting
>>> interactions is very hard to get cross platform. I spent many
>>> years dealing with it and its just too much work. Personally I'd
>>> rather see that development time spent elsewhere improving X3DOM.
>>> It's very helpful to be able to define your own vocabulary but as
>>> it stands PROTO's are not a proven cross platform way to do it.
>>> Maybe the other web native routes will have better luck.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Andreas Plesch
>>> <andreasplesch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Indeed, not having a PROTO node is a substantial lack of
>>> functionality in the x3dom code base and a loss if compared with
>>> standalone x3d browsers. At the risk of misinterpretation, to me it
>>> looks like there was conscious decision by the x3dom developers at
>>> some early point that the certainly very substantial cost of
>>> developing such functionality outweigh the expected benefits. This
>>> may have changed by now, x3dom-developers ?
>>> If not, it follows that there would be a large demand for guidance
>>> in terms of documentation, tutorials and perhaps tools on how to
>>> convert/translate PROTOs into x3dom compatible js code or custom
>>> x3dom nodes. I tried to provide some initial pointers but clearly
>>> input by the x3dom group is what is really required.
>>> -Andreas
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:00 PM, <x3d-public-request at web3d.org>
>>> wrote:
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: [X3D-Public] Prototype (Daniel Vera)
>>> 2. SSR: server-side rendering (doug sanden)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 10:31:24 +0000
>>> From: Daniel Vera <d.a.vera at warwick.ac.uk>
>>> To: John Richardson <richards at spawar.navy.mil>
>>> Cc: x3d-public at web3d.org
>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] [X3D-Public] Prototype
>>> Message-ID: <54DDD27C.1040900 at warwick.ac.uk>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>> Apologies for reviving an old thread, but in my opinion not having
>>> capability similar to VRML protos is indeed a loss of
>>> functionality;
>>>
>>> Explanation: I am an engineer (industrial production), not a
>>> developer;
>>> VRML PROTO/EXTERNPROTO has allowed our group to build rich 3D based
>>> engineering application using VRML/javascript code only (i.e.
>>> without
>>> the need to go in the depth of coding with low level libraries
>>> etc.).
>>>
>>> (https://www.youtube.com/user/FDSvideosFDS/videos)
>>>
>>> Looking into Andreas links (Box.js code in particular), it seems
>>> the way
>>> to go is to define additional X3DOM nodes, but that requires
>>> understanding X3DOM code, which not every class of users wants or
>>> has
>>> time to do; In my opinion, X3DOM should match the capability
>>> provided by
>>> X3D in defining complex modelling class/object using X3D/javascript
>>> code/syntax only.
>>>
>>> That said, I am open to additional suggestion, discussion or links
>>> to
>>> more information!
>>>
>>> Regards, Daniel
>>>
>>>
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