[x3d-public] [x3dom-developers] Prototype

Tony Parisi tparisi at gmail.com
Tue Feb 17 09:52:45 PST 2015


Eric,

If you're not going to go with X3DOM, why jump at proprietary runtimes like
Unreal or Unity? There are other open source options, such as GLAM (my
project) and SceneVR (not my project).

http://www.glamjs.org/

https://github.com/bnolan/scenevr
http://www.scenevr.com/

These have the benefit of not being tied to X3D legacy, which for some
developers is considered a burden. They also work with the latest browser
features like CSS Animations, which are far from perfect, but they have the
advantage of being universally supported in browsers. And so on. Now, both
of these projects are very new and don't have near the person-hours into
development that X3D does. But that's part of the attraction for some
people: it's a clean slate.

I understand that for others it's important to maintain X3D compatibility.
For those uses, it seems like X3DOM is a good bet.

Tony



On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Eric Maranne <eric at geovrml.com> wrote:

>  Hi Alan, long time no see :)
>
> two more cents ...
>
> cross plugin is almost impossible. It's even very difficult with different
> single plugin updates ... ( ! ) , and this, I guess because no browser has
> gained enough momentum to impose its own views on implementation efficiency
> of protos. From a user POV, it's well defined. From an implementor POV,
> efficiency, memory management, even compatibility with other browsers
> approaches (!) and underspec are as many landmines for interoperability.
>
> Look, even after more than a decade, rotation.multiply is leading to
> opposite composition in some VRML browsers !  this is not a *big* deal in
> development. It took more than a decade to leverage cross browser extrusion
> behaving ... scripting engines still are not compatible (tried this.
> operator in other plugin than cortona) ...  it took an x3D conformance
> database testing to get things going right in X3D, and it took me years of
> work to port from Cortona to Contact in the last decade. Not been using
> XJ3D, for my apps are stand alone, mostly web disconnected, and porting
> from one plugin to the other is too much a pain in the ... .
> Interoperability is resolved nowadays by choosing a plugin, and a
> container, that's why EVE is a stand alone app, and has been running like a
> Swiss cuckoo clock since 1999, version after version.
>
> So I don't think cross browser interoperability is an excuse. When in
> current implementations rotations are handled differently, scripting
> engines capabilities (and syntax expectations !!!) are different, protos
> can't be interoperable... and it's not because of dev. difficulties.
> Clearly, browsers ought now to be used in dedicated apps (like EVE for
> us), while X3DOM or pure webgl or EMScripten compilations would be used for
> Internet delivery/sharing.
>
> AFAIC, in my business, today, the problem is on the table, awaiting a
> decision. Infering stand alone EVE app would disappear in the end, cause no
> small business may support several competing techs for long. We already
> support OGRE, Contact and Unreal for different needs, but we need
> convergence. Are we the only end-users on the edge of change ? any echoes
> on the list ?
>
> Hopefully, concerning Protos, since most of the underlying implementation
> is shared (webGL), and if most of the middle layers implementation is
> shared (X3DOM), then surely many VRML/X3D/proprietary plugins interop
> landmines are gone .... RIP.
> My feeling is the new 'VR plugin' is now as low as webgl ... and the
> question is ... do we want to build atop, using X3D, or shifting authoring
> and usability to production environment UNREAL or Unity or else, delivering
> thru Emscripten.. .
>
> Thanks Fraunhofer team for the good work, thanks Don for your obstinacy.
>
> Eric.
> eric.maranne at vr-crisis.com
>
>
>
> Le 17/02/2015 17:49, Alan Hudson a écrit :
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
>> First, congratulations X3DOM developers.  Getting to embedded Script
>> nodes inside of Prototype declarations is about the most sophisticated
>> thing that there is in X3D.  Indeed it is a major language feature for
>> Extensibility (the X in X3D).  So if we get that working in X3DOM,
>> everything else is easier.   8)
>>
>> Attached please find a recently drawn diagram that sheds some light on
>> when values of embedded Script fields get initialized or overridden, and
>> also when they don't.  Perhaps some folks will find it helpful.  Comments
>> and improvements welcome, I'll be cleaning it up and adding an electronic
>> version to the other prototype resources.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure that Xj3D satisfactorily supports everything
>> (ProtoInstance fieldValue ExternProtoDeclare ProtoDeclare Script field IS
>> connect).  We recently improved some of the console diagnostics there,
>> which has helped in scene debugging.  If problems are still encountered,
>> then they are typically elsewhere in the scene graph.  Running open-source
>> Xj3D within Netbeans in debug mode lets us drill down to any line of code
>> necessary.
>>
>>  Xj3D never got all the interactions working completely right.  We made
> an heroic effort but getting cross browser PROTO's working is not easy.
> I'd suggest this has proven not possible at least given all the data points
> we've seen on interop issues.
>
>
>>
>> So implementing this proven, standard, working capability would seem to
>> be worthwhile.  Certainly seems easier than creating a new nonstandard
>> extension mechanism that doesn't support X3D content.
>>
>>  The only thing proven is that after a decade of trying a bunch of
> dedicated people cannot make them work.
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/16/2015 9:13 AM, Don Brutzman wrote:
>>
>>> It would be good to discuss strategies for eventually implementing X3D
>>> prototypes.
>>>
>>> Lots of X3D players have implemented prototypes, so they are a
>>> well-proven technology.
>>>
>>> Other opportunities for implementation in X3DOM may emerge. For example,
>>> if there is a design pattern for mapping an X3D ProtoDeclare into X3DOM
>>> source code, then we could write an XSLT stylesheet to provide such a
>>> conversion on demand.
>>>
>>> Sounds less efficient than simply implementing prototypes in X3DOM, but
>>> it is a path.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, in case anyone had a mistaken impression, there are no
>>> "native XML tags" for prototypes in the .x3d syntax.  Example invocation:
>>>
>>>       <ProtoInstance name='TimeDelaySensor' DEF='TimeDelaySensorExample'>
>>>         <fieldValue name='description' value='double click to initiate
>>> time-delayed event'/>
>>>         <fieldValue name='delayInterval' value='1'/>
>>>       </ProtoInstance>
>>>
>>> Similar syntax using the @name attribute is provided for ProtoDeclare
>>> and ExternProtoDeclare.  References:
>>>
>>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoInstance
>>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoDeclare
>>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ExternProtoDeclare
>>>
>>> http://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes
>>>
>>> http://x3dgraphics.com/slidesets/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes.pdf
>>>
>>> https://www.movesinstitute.org/Video/Courses/X3dForWebAuthors/X3dForWebAuthorsVideo.html#14
>>>
>>> all the best, Don
>>>
>>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>> --
>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
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