[x3d-public] Extrusions, take 3

John Carlson yottzumm at gmail.com
Tue Jan 26 21:33:58 PST 2016


Better yet, define a script which takes two endpoints on a geometry, then transform the two endpoints (and thus the geometry) with the script.  Hm.  I might be able to do this myself.  Hmm.
Sound more possible with Cylinders defined by X3D now.  Took me long enough.

John
> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:26 AM, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I just realized the code was online here:
> 
> https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/force.x3dhttps://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/force.x3d <https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/force.x3dhttps://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/force.x3d>
> 
> (click raw)
> 
> Here’s the challenge.  Define an IFS by two endpoints, and then move those endpoints around with minimal scripting (Declarative 3D).
> 
> John
>> On Jan 26, 2016, at 11:45 PM, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I am not "modeling" I am doing declarative 3d as much as possible and scripting the rest.  Thus I am creating protos for edges and nodes of a 3D graph.  I currently use ROUTES to link the edges  (cylinders/extrusions) to the nodes (spheres).   I am using position interpolators to animate the nodes, and routes to update the spline of the edges.  I do not understand how to use Cylinders as defined by X3D in this way so I use extrusions.  If you can suggest a way to implement a 3D graph without extrusions, I would be welcome to hear it.  I can provide source code if you like.  I have posted force.x3d here, or you can look at force.json in https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/ <https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/>
>> On Jan 26, 2016 11:27 PM, "Leonard Daly" <Leonard.Daly at realism.com <mailto:Leonard.Daly at realism.com>> wrote:
>> On 1/26/2016 5:21 PM, John Carlson wrote:
>>> All I would really like to see is an easy way to define Cylinder with 2 endpoints and a radius.  If that is provided, I have no problem with deprecating Extrusion from the standard.
>>> I do not think defining a Cylinder in this way would be onerous to a run-time, but I could be wrong.  If someone could provide an example of a Cylinder like this, it would be great!
>> 
>> John,
>> 
>> You using Extrusion to define a cylinder with known endpoints, as opposed to using a Transform {Shape {Cylinder}} to do that based on the center point and height then rotated & translated into place.
>> 
>> I gather you are doing your modeling by hand in a text or xml editor (like X3D-Edit). There is almost no commercial modeling-by-hand. I do not know of any professional or amateur modeler creating commercial quality models working that way. I think you will find a tool like Blender solves a lot of your modeling issues.
>> 
>> 
>> Leonard Daly
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> John
>>>> On Jan 26, 2016, at 8:13 PM, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Uh, I asked for an IndexedFaceSet.  Thanks, though.
>>>> 
>>>> John
>>>>> On Jan 26, 2016, at 8:11 PM, doug sanden <highaspirations at hotmail.com> <mailto:highaspirations at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/41.x3d <http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/41.x3d>
>>>>> 
>>>>> snake animation animating extrusion spine
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: x3d-public [x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org>] on behalf of John Carlson [yottzumm at gmail.com <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>]
>>>>> Sent: January 26, 2016 6:04 PM
>>>>> To: Leonard Daly
>>>>> Cc: x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Extrusions, take 3
>>>>> 
>>>>> Maybe just show an example of an IndexedFaceSet which is an extrusion of a circle with 3 spline points, with the “bend” animated from 90 to 180 degrees.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It’s okay to use Blender or Maya, I’d just like to see what the results look like.
>>>>> 
>>>>> John
>>>>> On Jan 26, 2016, at 8:01 PM, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com><mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com> <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> So how do you propose to animate IndexedFaceSets in a declarative or VRMLscript or JavaScript manner if they are Extrusions?  Can we see an example?  If the developer has to do it, can we help them?
>>>>> 
>>>>> John
>>>>> On Jan 26, 2016, at 6:58 PM, Leonard Daly <Leonard.Daly at realism.com <mailto:Leonard.Daly at realism.com><mailto:Leonard.Daly at realism.com> <mailto:Leonard.Daly at realism.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 1/26/2016 3:21 PM, John Carlson wrote:
>>>>> Leonard, I think you forget that Extrusion splines etc. can be animated.  If Maya can export an Extrusion animation to X3D V4.0 and your new elements can handle animation of it, I think we are fine.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In Maya and Blender, extrusions are converted to IndexedFaceSets. These can be animated through the usual mechanisms in those applications. The results are typically stored in a FBX file. Unfortunately, the FBX format is not open and not too conducive to importing in a browser. Autodesk provides a C++ and Python API for accessing the file.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Extrusions are just a convenience node for creating a constrained IndexedFaceSet. I am working on exactly how X3D fits in the process chain from modeling tools to display. The goal is that X3D is an declarative archivable format that has a browser-based run time. The goal is to not reduce the display capability of X3D in that chain; however, not all of the functionality of X3D V3.3 is necessary to remain in the node definitions to make that happen.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Animation of the spline and cross-sections of an extrusion is much easier for the developer, but puts a much greater load on the run-time as it needs to re-triangulate the result on each animation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Leonard Daly
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> John
>>>>> On Jan 26, 2016, at 1:47 PM, Leonard Daly <<mailto:Leonard.Daly at realism.com> <mailto:Leonard.Daly at realism.com>Leonard.Daly at realism.com <mailto:Leonard.Daly at realism.com><mailto:Leonard.Daly at realism.com> <mailto:Leonard.Daly at realism.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would like to ask the question very differently. My question is not to ignore the importance of getting the definition correct for X3D <= V3.3.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Most (>95%) 3D modeling is done with a tool. In non-CAD environment, the tools is almost certainly Maya or Blender. Both of those tools have extrusions built in to their interface. I imagine CAD tools are similar. With so many tools providing graphical extrusion editors, and some of the tools being open-source (at least Blender);
>>>>> 
>>>>> Do we need an extrusion node in V4 to support content developed for V4+?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Leonard Daly
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 1/26/2016 7:15 AM, Alekseyev, Vsevolod (NIH/NIAID) [E] wrote:
>>>>> Hi X3D community,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've tried and failed twice to explain the problems with the definition of the Extrusion node. So here's a tl;dr version:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dear authors of the X3D standard, please take a careful look at the standard and answer me:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1) When the spine goes (0,0,0)-(0,-1,0), what is the CSP?
>>>>> Note: all answers but one will render one of the reference models in the Savage archive invalid.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2) When the spine goes (0,0,0)-(0,1,0)-(0,0,0), what is the CSP?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 3) When the spine goes (0,0,0)-(1,1,0)-(1,1,0)-(1,1,0)-(2,0,0), what is the CSP for the three middle points?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Leonard Daly
>>>>> 3D Systems & Cloud Consultant
>>>>> X3D Co-Chair on Sabbatical
>>>>> LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair
>>>>> President, Daly Realism - Creating the Future
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Leonard Daly
>>>>> 3D Systems & Cloud Consultant
>>>>> X3D Co-Chair on Sabbatical
>>>>> LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair
>>>>> President, Daly Realism - Creating the Future
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Leonard Daly
>> 3D Systems & Cloud Consultant
>> X3D Co-Chair on Sabbatical
>> LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair
>> President, Daly Realism - Creating the Future
> 

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