[x3d-public] ] V4.0 Opendiscussion/workshopon X3DHTMLintegration

Philipp Slusallek philipp.slusallek at dfki.de
Thu Jun 16 21:54:58 PDT 2016 

Hi Joe, all,

FYI: It seemes that my email to the x3d-public list were dropped by the
server. Because I did not get a error message, I only found out now
(thanks for your help Don, Leonard!). It seems that Leonard will be able
to resend them to the list.

I think this was/is a good discussion that is worth having on the list
archives.

Am 16.06.2016 um 22:20 schrieb Joe D Williams:
>> but to have a direct
>> mapping from the data of the game
> 
> Yes, well then that is not the scope of X3D, at least in this case. If
> you see the kick example, then the 'standard' X3D hanim model actually
> exposes more of what you need in better interactive model than this
> example.

Maybe it is now. But I would argue that it should be possible to more
easily work with data in various formats and not be forced into the one
and only format.

Not only may you have todo extra work, there might even be features that
are not covered (skinning for tangent vectors are such) and extra work
done that is not even needed in some situations.

I think this aspect of the design is worth reconsidering for a new
version. Especially, since an spec/implementation is available that
would support that and could be integrated into the new version.

> I think what we are seeing in the .heavy animation (discalimer: haven't
> seen the code) is not the actions of a connected hierarcal skeleton, but
> more like just moving the segments (bones) around without exposed
> concepts such as a joint center. That is ok, the skeleton may expose
> itself in the anim code. As near as I can tell from the data without

It is a full hierarchical skeleton. We do propagate the transformation
of the upper joints downwards as necessary.

All the code is in the xml3d.js repository on github, if you want to
look at it. The link in the file goes to the minified version where its
hardly readable.

> seeing the animation user code then this is basically like early simple
> motion capture data dealing with motion captured then edited but
> basically built to be played back like a video at some more or less
> 'fixed frame rates, but not much processing.

It is definitely more than that! In a project with Daimler we are using
it for example for doing fully automatic motion synthesis for virtual
workes in a factory model to execute some high-level tasks given some
written instructions ("pick up part X, use the skrew driver to fix it to
the car Y and location Z"). All this is based on semanic annotations of
the XML3D model and the shown character animation engine.

>> simply create their
>> own high-level elements in a modular way using WebComponents and publish
>> that for others to use.
> 
> more later I hope, but that is the purpose of X3D. To establish these
> practical, bound, data sets that can be animated in a realistic way.
> There are several players that use this model and is the basic world
> standard' simulation humanoidj for detailed simulation and interaction.
> 
> So, for high level elements, so far I don't see any baetterthan X3D
> Hanim. I see that way that the runtime interpolator data is stored in
> you code and I think I can compare is with the way it is presented in X3D.

I still think you are misunderstanding me: The goal of our work os NOT
to develop a "better Hanim". It is to have a declarative interface to
specify all sorts of geometry and other processingin an easy and
high-level way.

This can then be used by an web developer to define their own object
representations and how they get processed for display, interaction,
etc. You are not limited to the way someone defined at some point (as
good as that may be, it will never be perfectly suited for anyone).

This is something that X3D does not really offer today, and which we
think would be useful to add. Just a suggestion.

What I am saying in this thread is that our concept is powerful enogh to
also implement Hanim.

> Anyway, I think I will be away for a week or so but since in hanim, for
> people playing in free and open locations, the high-level elements of
> X3D HAnim must be considered as a tried an true way since the essentials
> of the humanoid, what you need to build and take control are all mostly
> built-in, For example,X3D used to call the thing a Transform but added
> some features and called it a joint. For early armatures, the oint angle
> was not an issue, all they needed to care about where the bones or
> segments. Then advancements in creation of a realistc model, Joints were
> exposed. Anyway, I hope you are interested enough to comment on the data
> structures in the example I sent.

See above.

>> I am sure large parts of X3D should fit this
>> model quite nicely.
> 
> Fine, I start with the existing X3D hierachies and names of interfaces.
> More later, I hope.

You can do exactly this with Xflow. Anyone can implement Hanim or any
other animation system. All it takes is a bit of WebComponents to
defined the representation and and some small Xflow processing pipeline.

You want to add something to Hanim (e.g. tangents)? Be my friend and
just add a single line to the processing pipeline. and it works. No need
to wait for a revised Hanim standard.

Xflow gives you the flexibility of being able to define your own
processing pipeline and allows it to be mapped to hardware and execute
highly efficienly. It iss not limited to a single predefined way of
doing things.


Best,

	Philipp

> Thanks and Best,
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Slusallek"
> <philipp.slusallek at dfki.de>
> To: "Joe D Williams" <joedwil at earthlink.net>; "'X3D Graphics public
> mailing list'" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] ] V4.0 Opendiscussion/workshopon
> X3DHTMLintegration
> 
> 
>> Hi Joe, all,
>>
>> Thanks for looking into this. I am not sure I understand all aspects of
>> your post.
>>
>> Again, the goal of this example was not to provide a nicely editable
>> format (Hanim would much be better for that!) but to have a direct
>> mapping from the data of the game to a nicely animatable asset to be
>> used in XML3D (without knowing the internals of the implementation).
>> This is a very important goal, I believe.
>>
>> Layering a WebComponent on top of our core engine, which reformats the
>> input data (e.g. Hanim) is the main topic of the paper I sent and should
>> not be too difficult once this is all working nicely (still work in
>> progress right now). We hope to show a nice prototype at Web3D if things
>> work out well.
>>
>> Eventually this would allow you or anyone else to simply create their
>> own high-level elements in a modular way using WebComponents and publish
>> that for others to use. I am sure large parts of X3D should fit this
>> model quite nicely.
>>
>> It would be great if others want to join and help with this.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Philipp
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 15.06.2016 um 09:57 schrieb Joe D Williams:
>>>> here in string format. If you look into it
>>> you find all the index buffers for the different parts of the body,
>>> positions, normals, texcoords, the bone indices and weights (which bones
>>> influence each vertex and with what weight), bone parents (describe the
>>> bone hierarchy used for flattening), and bindTranslation and
>>> bindRotation (which define the bind pose). After that you find the
>>> different animations again specified as separate translation and
>>> rotation applied to the bones (defined above). The latter are arrays of
>>> arrays indexed by the "key" value, which is the time index for the
>>> respective animation keyframe. We could have several of those animation
>>> elements here for many different animation to select from.
>>>
>>> That is all first rate I am sure (not sure I care about flattening) and
>>> the data categories look like what I have seen and can expect to need. I
>>> know I need arrays of arrays, always.
>>>
>>> X3D HAnim builds the human skeleton hierarchy using Joints and Segments
>>> and end-effectors. The names may be different but it looks like there is
>>> equivalent functionality to do my example (hanim level 2, LOA3 humanoid
>>> skeleton with segment geometry and/or deformable skin bound to
>>> Joint(s)).
>>>
>>> HAnim Segment geometry along with child joints and segments are animated
>>> direcly as a parent Joint is rotated. Skin geometry is bound to Joint(s)
>>> and animated by weighted Joint(s) rotation. Maybe due to skeleton
>>> hierarchy, hanim don't typically set independent joint translation or
>>> segment orientation for usual animations. Usually the only Joint that
>>> gets translation is the root.
>>>
>>> So, maybe I can look into this some more.
>>>
>>> https://github.com/xml3d/xml3d-examples/blob/master/examples/xflowSkin/asset/heavy.xml
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> shaders,
>>> master mesh base,
>>> meshes used here,
>>> animations.
>>>
>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/xml3d/xml3d-examples/master/examples/xflowSkin/asset/heavy.json
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> meshes used here
>>> animation keyframes used here
>>>
>>> index_hvyweapon_red
>>>  int index of mesh
>>> index_eyeball_r
>>>  int index of mesh
>>> index_eyeball_l
>>>  int index of mesh
>>> position
>>>  float3 location of point
>>> normal
>>> float3 of mesh
>>> texcoord
>>> float2 of texture
>>> boneIdx
>>>  ? int4 ( )
>>> boneWeight
>>>  ? float4  (rotation of joint)
>>> boneParent
>>>   int  (parent joint of segment)  116
>>> bindTranslation
>>>  float3 ( )
>>> bindRotation
>>>   float4 116 quat (parent joint of segment)
>>> taunt05h_translation
>>>   float3 116 (location of root joint?)
>>> value and key 128 keys 0-5.29167 x  0.0416667
>>> taunt05h_rotation
>>>   float4 quat (of target joint?)
>>> value and key 128 keys 0- 5.29167  x 0.0416667
>>>
>>> Animation
>>> animations used here
>>> data id="anim_taunt05h" src="heavy.json"
>>> not found here
>>>
>>> OK, Thank You All. Now I think I know 116 is an important number in this
>>> and am ready to look at the anim_taunt05h animation things that make the
>>> heavy.json data produce stuff that is live and operating. Yes, I might
>>> have heard from this list that json for scripts is under development, so
>>> I'm really not to surprized to find it in missing in this heavy.json
>>> file. Can you please send me a link to some readable?
>>>
>>> So, I think my x3d example basically probably contains the same sorts of
>>> data required or can be derived, for instance axis-angle instead of
>>> quaternions (0 0 1 0 = 0 0 0 1) and other that I don't quite get yet,
>>> like why 2 interpolator value-key sets and 116 bindRotation values?
>>>
>>> If you have in idea for an automated way for me to load my x3d hanim
>>> example data into this style of coding, please tell me. I'm not worried
>>> that there is no mention of 'joint' in any of the above data names. It
>>> took change for many toolmakers to expose the concept of a joint as the
>>> basic hierarchal object structure and exposed joints as actuators of the
>>> skeleton. .
>>>
>>> Thanks Again,
>>> All Best,
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Slusallek"
>>> <philipp.slusallek at dfki.de>
>>> To: "Joe D Williams" <joedwil at earthlink.net>; "'X3D Graphics public
>>> mailing list'" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 10:26 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] ] V4.0 Opendiscussion/workshopon
>>> X3DHTMLintegration
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>
>>>> I would appreciate if you would not assume the worst from others.
>>>> No, we
>>>> are NOT cheating and all the data is actually there right in front of
>>>> you for you to see and check, even without my help. The paper (which I
>>>> did link multiple times in my emails) would have told you how to
>>>> interpret the data, which is all in the main HTML5/XML3D web page or
>>>> files that are linked from it. Just follow the URLs. It just looks a
>>>> bit
>>>> different than you are used to.
>>>>
>>>> So, for your convenience here are all the bits and pieces:
>>>>
>>>> -- The data is actually exported in json format from the game. XML3D
>>>> can
>>>> directly import JSON and make this data available as generic <data>
>>>> elements for Xflow. BTW, we also have format handlers for a number of
>>>> other geometry formats that you can directly refer to simply with a
>>>> URL.
>>>> The result is not a mesh but simply a <data> element.
>>>>
>>>> You see this json import at the very end of the XML3D file for the
>>>> heavy
>>>> character
>>>> (https://github.com/xml3d/xml3d-examples/blob/master/examples/xflowSkin/asset/heavy.xml).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- If you look at the json file (large,
>>>> https://github.com/xml3d/xml3d-examples/blob/master/examples/xflowSkin/asset/heavy.json)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> you see all the raw data , here in string format. If you look into it
>>>> you find all the index buffers for the different parts of the body,
>>>> positions, normals, texcoords, the bone indices and weights (which
>>>> bones
>>>> influence each vertex and with what weight), bone parents (describe the
>>>> bone hierarchy used for flattening), and bindTranslation and
>>>> bindRotation (which define the bind pose). After that you find the
>>>> different animations again specified as separate translation and
>>>> rotation applied to the bones (defined above). The latter are arrays of
>>>> arrays indexed by the "key" value, which is the time index for the
>>>> respective animation keyframe. We could have several of those animation
>>>> elements here for many different animation to select from.
>>>>
>>>> -- Back in the heavy.xml file we do a few tricks to better handle the
>>>> data: You see the 'filter="keep({translation: XX_translation, ...}"'
>>>> part. This simply creates a new data element with selected and renamed
>>>> entries. No data duplication is happening here, its just references and
>>>> so very efficient. We do this so that the generic Xflow scripts are
>>>> referencing the right data (by name). The same for the index elements
>>>> and the main data element for the character ("meshbase"). We also
>>>> define
>>>> the materials here. All the data exists exactly once.
>>>>
>>>> -- In the main html file
>>>> (https://github.com/xml3d/xml3d-examples/blob/master/examples/xflowSkin/xflow-skin.html/)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> we then simply import the data while applying the skinning operator
>>>> (discussed in a previous email) and then instantiate the different body
>>>> parts with their materials. Again, we could further put this into an
>>>> XML3D Asset (see spec I referenced in an earlier email), if you want to
>>>> use the characters in an even simpler way as an entire asset with a
>>>> single line. Note, that even in this case you still have full control
>>>> over the animation and other aspects of the character within an asset.
>>>>
>>>> So you see: No tricks here, all good skeletal animation with
>>>> skinning as
>>>> exported directly from the game character. Or "Level1" as you call it.
>>>>
>>>> And yes all of this is directly animatable from standard HTML5 (JS
>>>> scripts, events, CSS attributes, even from well-known CSS transitions,
>>>> etc.). It just all works as an extension to HTML5. Just a bit
>>>> differently organized as "required" by Hanim. But we can use it just
>>>> the
>>>> same way.
>>>>
>>>> -- The whole animation is controlled by setting the "key" value in the
>>>> character in the main file ("heavySkinned"). Again I explained in my
>>>> previous email.
>>>>
>>>> -- And again, this might not be the alternative to the Hanim format,
>>>> and
>>>> it does not try to be. Its just the way skeletal animation is specified
>>>> in the game the character comes from. The point is we can simply use
>>>> the
>>>> data "as is" without having to convert it to some "standard" format.
>>>>
>>>> -- But in just the same way we can create a Xflow graph that uses the
>>>> data from an Hanim character spec. This what I call "generic data
>>>> handling and processing". Again, most of the processing can be
>>>> mapped to
>>>> the GPU without anyone having to write any specific code for
>>>> skinning or
>>>> so. All without any "native" code to write. Its handled in Xflow where
>>>> possible and needed. We are further improving the automatic GPU mapping
>>>> to be even more flexible, as we speak.
>>>>
>>>> -- BTW, Besides the string format (in the json file), we also offer the
>>>> BLAST format for very efficient binary data streaming. It is
>>>> essentially
>>>> a json header with intelligently arranged binary blobs, organized for
>>>> streaming. You find the paper here:
>>>> https://graphics.cg.uni-saarland.de/2014/blast-a-binary-large-structured-transmission-format-for-the-web/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Philipp
>>>>
>>>> Am 14.06.2016 um 04:03 schrieb Joe D Williams:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought we could have meaningful discussion about the different
>>>>>> approaches, which could help all of us to come up with a better
>>>>>> understanding and finally a better architecture.
>>>>>
>>>>> Great, the architecture I am interested in the the architecture of the
>>>>> Humanoid. It consist of various types of data. If we are talking about
>>>>> the same thing, that is skeletal animation using segment geometry and
>>>>> skin, then we should be able to talk about user code for skeletons and
>>>>> skin and animations.
>>>>>
>>>>> When we use skeletal animation to animate skin, then we assume the
>>>>> author wants to document the mesh to actuator bindings. If you don't
>>>>> need this data for a style of animation you are using then that is
>>>>> fine
>>>>> and please tell me how you are doing it. If you do support this
>>>>> style of
>>>>> joint-driven animation then where does the author put that mesh
>>>>> binding
>>>>> information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe I am being difficult, but from what you have shown me i said
>>>>> before and you did not refute, I still am guessing that you may be
>>>>> animating what I call a Level 2 export from some authoring tool.
>>>>> Level 2
>>>>> is when the data for the skeleton and animation system is not there
>>>>> and
>>>>> the export is just flattest possible geometries for each frame.
>>>>> Then you
>>>>> just cycle through the geometry frames like it was really animated. If
>>>>> that is true, then x3d deals with that just fine in a very systematic
>>>>> way of just swapping all geometry each frame. But that is not the
>>>>> topic
>>>>> of hanim because h-anim deals primarily with skeletal animation
>>>>> progressing frame to frame. What I call Level 1 export gives you all
>>>>> geometry, data, and event system needed to create the animated scene.
>>>>> Level 3 export is a video where all scenegraph information is lost.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, as I am asking, where is the skeleton and where is the mesh and
>>>>> the bindings.
>>>>> How can I take conrol of the animations?
>>>>>
>>>>>> But it seems you do not really care what others have to say.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe I have ignored something you have written. All fine stuffs
>>>>> but the
>>>>> topic I want to chase is what are your recommended style of user code
>>>>> for the process of skeletal animations. If you do enough of it and
>>>>> want
>>>>> to reuse some of it I'm sure you will have some preferences for names
>>>>> and structures for getting data into the user code. Admittedly X3D
>>>>> HAnim
>>>>> has a very narrow scope in this area but the elements in that scope
>>>>> are
>>>>> essential for basic operation of the humanoid.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course this basic humanoid could be composed and operated without
>>>>> giving special names to parts of it and there may be other ways of
>>>>> moving skin around, maybe even without a skeleton - that's the way
>>>>> they
>>>>> used to do it. But just please tell me how I use your tool to get
>>>>> basic
>>>>> results.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Most of your questions would
>>>>>> already be answered by a simple look into our papers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess you have no questions or comments about the 'standard' hanim
>>>>> character I sent.
>>>>> The main reason you might read it is just to see how hanim
>>>>> documents the
>>>>> structures and parameters.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did actually look and read the example you referenced. Sorry that
>>>>> all
>>>>> I am asking is not answered on that one page of user code. I am sure
>>>>> there are pages of code behind that page but I could not find working
>>>>> links. How about just these questions below? I am just asking for some
>>>>> simple guidance. The page you showed did not contain these details, at
>>>>> least in a form that I could recognize and understand.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> skeleton hierarchy
>>>>>
>>>>> can you please show me the parts that define the parent-child
>>>>> relationships of the various parts of the skeleton. Since I want to
>>>>> deal
>>>>> with aspects of skeletal animation then I want to know how to target
>>>>> specific joints or whatever is used in your system to connect with
>>>>> other
>>>>> structures. If your process uses a skeleton hierarchy (some don't)
>>>>> then
>>>>> I should be able define my skeleton in the style of your user code.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> joint center locations
>>>>>
>>>>> these are important parameters of the model. Again, I think I need to
>>>>> position the joints in 3D space in order to drive the segment or skin
>>>>> geometry.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> before animation pose
>>>>>
>>>>> what is the default skeleton pose prior to animation.
>>>>> My existing animations may depend upon a certain starting pose
>>>>>
>>>>>>> before animation joint rotations
>>>>>
>>>>> another important parameter for sharing skeletons and animations
>>>>>
>>>>>>> segment geometries
>>>>>>> skin geometry
>>>>>
>>>>> Where is the mesh defined in the user code? Not on that page you
>>>>> showed me,
>>>>>
>>>>>>> skin vertex to joint bindings
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is a vital block of data. I must know which joints affect
>>>>> which points of the skin.
>>>>> Show me the mesh and binding to animated elements. I am not interested
>>>>> really in the techniques of the runtime, just how the humanoid
>>>>> skeleton
>>>>> and skin is documented.
>>>>>
>>>>> The purpose of X3D is not the style of runtime since many styles are
>>>>> possible,
>>>>> The purpose of X3D is reliable documentation for transport.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am more than happy to answer meaningful questions but why should I
>>>>>> repeat the paper's content here just because you do not care to read
>>>>>> it?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about because you a polite guy with a mission and want to help
>>>>> even
>>>>> though I am having problems?
>>>>> Did you send me a link for the paper?
>>>>> "Cam you Please show me the mesh?" is not a meaningless question?
>>>>> It may
>>>>> be lazy for me not looking harder but the question is not meaningless.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why should I have to read the paper (which I probably have seen at
>>>>> some
>>>>> point but don't recall coverage of hanim specifically mentioned)
>>>>> for you
>>>>> to tell me where in the user code for your hanim example do you stash
>>>>> skeleton joint hierachy and the skin bindings?
>>>>>
>>>>> I shoudn't talk like this but this is like the old days when character
>>>>> rigging and all the various tricks were used to hide and obscure code
>>>>> because no one wanted to give away their rigging and skinning secrets.
>>>>> Maybe that is what is happening here where this basic stuff is really
>>>>> not for the eyes of a casual reader that might stand at least some
>>>>> chamce of understanding the thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> The hanim character I showed is nothing so great, all hand-done with a
>>>>> text editor but it works by the spec, the skeleton is orderly, the
>>>>> mesh
>>>>> is obvious, and the animation is straightforward. It should not be too
>>>>> difficult to make it work in your system. But I gotta know where the
>>>>> data goes before I try it. So please guide me through the places where
>>>>> the data that is needed would be placed.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Philipp
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Philipp. I am somewhat limited in what I can do but if you have
>>>>> anything, even a rough template style for skeletal animation
>>>>> projects, I
>>>>> would like to try it.
>>>>>
>>>>> All Best,
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 13.06.2016 um 18:10 schrieb Joe D Williams:
>>>>>>>>> ... this generic data design also allows  ... the specialized
>>>>>>>>> approach that X3D is based on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is what I hope to hear anyway. X3D does use a generically
>>>>>>> specialized approach because it is aimed at a specific
>>>>>>> application. So
>>>>>>> here are some categories of data required to create the humanoid and
>>>>>>> animations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> skeleton hierarchy
>>>>>>> joint center locations
>>>>>>> segment lengths
>>>>>>> before animation pose
>>>>>>> before animation joint rotations
>>>>>>> segment geometries
>>>>>>> skin geometry
>>>>>>> skin vertex to joint bindings
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, the x3d hanim data design is pure 3D database. Easy to build
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> a spreadsheet. For the skeleton, there is a base joint, then
>>>>>>> segments
>>>>>>> connect to other joints in a system of parent-child so the thing
>>>>>>> moves
>>>>>>> as expected by rotations applied to joints. The only reason I can
>>>>>>> think of why they called the bones segments instead of bones is
>>>>>>> because this type of chained animations using
>>>>>>> anchorjoint-segment-joint-segment-(etc.)-endeffector structures is
>>>>>>> very common over many fields as well as humanoid simulation. Also
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> 3D structure gives some handles to attach physics elements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In x3d, the segment geometries are children of the segment so
>>>>>>> when the
>>>>>>> segment moves because the joint is rotated, then the geometry moves.
>>>>>>> So, in the x3d data model the animated geometry is defined in the
>>>>>>> children user code of the segment it represents, This should be
>>>>>>> fairly
>>>>>>> standard way of including geometry for the character.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In x3d the segment lengths are not given directly, instead it is a
>>>>>>> computed distance between parent and child joints (or parent
>>>>>>> joint and
>>>>>>> end effector).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In x3d the before animation skeleton pose is sort of a relaxed
>>>>>>> attention pose, with all joints at the default rotation, facing +z,
>>>>>>> with +y up, with 0 0 0 at the standing surface between the feet.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> is the animation binding pose which may be different than the skin
>>>>>>> binding pose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The base joint for the skeleton is about crotch level, maybe
>>>>>>> center of
>>>>>>> gravity standing, Then the x y z of joint centers are also set
>>>>>>> relative to 0 0 0. The hanim example typical skeleton dimensions are
>>>>>>> from a large sample and include a collection of surface features,
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> as an xyz location for the top of the head. So the complete
>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>> dimensions of the skeleton are stored as an attribute of each Joint
>>>>>>> node. There may be other ways to do this but this seems
>>>>>>> convenient and
>>>>>>> is basically what all authoring tools do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the animation includes a deformable mesh, then each vertex of the
>>>>>>> skin geometry needs to be hooked up with one or more joint nodes
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> are responsible for controlling displacment of each skin vertex
>>>>>>> as the
>>>>>>> skeleton joints are rotated. The skin geometry is defined as a child
>>>>>>> of the humanoid so all moves when the base joint moves and each
>>>>>>> individual vertex of the skin moves according to rotation of
>>>>>>> associated joint(s). So the skin is defined as a single mesh that
>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> be composed from individual geometries.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The binding of each vertex to one or more joints is given in each
>>>>>>> Joint node by listing the number of the vertex in its order of
>>>>>>> appearance in the skin geomery definition, along with a weight that
>>>>>>> allows computation of the radial displacement to move the vertex as
>>>>>>> the associated joint(s)are rotated. So, the individual joint nodes
>>>>>>> hold skin binding and weight data, I guess there could be other ways
>>>>>>> of cooding this, like frestanding list of each vertex and its
>>>>>>> controlling joints but that path was not chosen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seem complex? Well how else can it be done? You must know complete
>>>>>>> details about the skeleton and skin or else, no luck or turn it over
>>>>>>> to a black box. If you use this sort of technology, then this is
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> it takes to document the techniques.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In x3d standard, the animation is given by listing the controls,
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> as touch and time sensors. For each joint to be animated an
>>>>>>> orientation interpolator or script along with a list of routes that
>>>>>>> describe the flow of time to each interpolator and the result from
>>>>>>> each interpolator to the Joint it controls.  completes the animation
>>>>>>> event system,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So that is my version of how the hanim character 'rigging; and
>>>>>>> animation data is presented as user code. Especially in hanim there
>>>>>>> really aren't many abstractions. It is very concrete because the
>>>>>>> model
>>>>>>> wants to be as complete and realistic as possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> again > Hanim has
>>>>>>>> selected one specific way of describing and handling animation and
>>>>>>>> skinning, which requires a node-specific implementation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, you just have to recognize the node and know what to do with the
>>>>>>> data.
>>>>>>> Animation is usually keyframe interpolation, meaning a set of data
>>>>>>> that includes a list of times and a list of what the data should
>>>>>>> be at
>>>>>>> that time. The idea is that if you need to create the scene at some
>>>>>>> point between the keytimes, then linear interpolation berween
>>>>>>> adjacent
>>>>>>> key data can be computed. This is the way all does realtime.
>>>>>>> There can
>>>>>>> be some differences that simpify if you just wanna make a video. But
>>>>>>> again, if you need interplators, there are not many easier or more
>>>>>>> straightforward deflcative way to define user code for a keyframe
>>>>>>> interpolator.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for skinning, maybe you would rather have a separate container
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> just lists each vertex and and the elements that control it. What
>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>> better way to document this connection than the way it is done in
>>>>>>> x3d
>>>>>>> hanim?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes, skeleton has at its core a node specific implementation
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> contains the hierarchy of joints. It is important to define the
>>>>>>> hieratchy in the user code so it can be verified against a
>>>>>>> 'standard'
>>>>>>> hierarchy which is part of figuring out whether the character can do
>>>>>>> 'standard' animations, for example.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So it is just a matter of names of functionality and the data for
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> functionality. And the not small matter of putting that
>>>>>>> functionality
>>>>>>> in a structure and syntax so that the data can be easily read,
>>>>>>> analyzed, and maybe extracted in a 'standard' form and used
>>>>>>> according
>>>>>>> to processing styles of the supporting 3D application. HAnim made a
>>>>>>> giant step forward when back in the day they decided to put the
>>>>>>> complete skeleton model and all the data to run the thing
>>>>>>> directly and
>>>>>>> unambigiously in the user code. This made the model concrete and
>>>>>>> verifiable as well as personal. Before that all they could do was
>>>>>>> submit lists of elements and data to the big hanim simulator in the
>>>>>>> sky and it would would send back results.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some built-in convenience nodes are certainly needed at some
>>>>>>> point. Is
>>>>>>> here a simple way to define keyframe interpolation or do I start
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> a script template that depends upon dom events?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks and Best,
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe D Williams"
>>>>>>> <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> To: "doug sanden" <highaspirations at hotmail.com>; "'X3D Graphics
>>>>>>> public
>>>>>>> mailing list'" <x3d-public at web3d.org>; "Philipp Slusallek"
>>>>>>> <philipp.slusallek at dfki.de>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 3:59 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] ] V4.0 Opendiscussion/workshopon
>>>>>>> X3DHTMLintegration
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi, Philipp,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://xml3d.github.io/xml3d-examples/examples/xflowSkin/xflow-skin.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> simple skinned and animated characters
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't see it. There are things jumping around, but from code think
>>>>>>> not skeletons with skin but just geometries dragged from frame to
>>>>>>> frame. Maybe the code is in the protos? Looks like it could be
>>>>>>> generated by something that used skeletal animation but just
>>>>>>> exported
>>>>>>> geometry for some keyframes. Anyway, I can't find the desired
>>>>>>> interfaces, like how is the skeleton composed, how is the skin
>>>>>>> bound,
>>>>>>> how do I control the animations, do my personal animations stand a
>>>>>>> chance of working in those rigs? All the questions I consider basic
>>>>>>> are not there or very far down in the reading. So show me the
>>>>>>> code for
>>>>>>> a skeleton, please,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the spec, It is important that the skeleton be well defined in
>>>>>>> terms of names, locations, and interfaces. To me, the great thing
>>>>>>> about the x3d representation is clarity about the naming and
>>>>>>> location
>>>>>>> of features, and even an initial pose so that animations can be
>>>>>>> easily
>>>>>>> transported between characters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hanim has
>>>>>>>> selected one specific way of describing and handling animation and
>>>>>>>> skinning, which requires a node-specific implementation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right, hanim documented the best practices for handling skeleton,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> animation, and skinning, I mean for years x3d does it the same way
>>>>>>> because these are the parameters for the way that everybody does it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, it started long ago with the idea that researchers needed a
>>>>>>> standardized skeleton that would serve for producing a computable
>>>>>>> replacement for a mechanical armature in humanoid simulations. With
>>>>>>> medical and robotic folks also involved, they decided to pick a
>>>>>>> realistic representation that was widely accepted. The hanim and X3D
>>>>>>> standards use as the example a 'standard' humanoid with 'typical'
>>>>>>> dimensions in a realistic humanoid hierarchy, This was easy for VRML
>>>>>>> and X3D with a Humanoid container holding skeleton and skin and some
>>>>>>> other stuffs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Skeleton is realistic hierarchy of Joints, Segments, and Sites.
>>>>>>> Defining the default initial pose was not easy but finally, the
>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>> was probably an artifact of the method used to obtain the greatast
>>>>>>> share of samples to define typical joint and surface feature
>>>>>>> locations. Anyway, some of the names have changed (segment
>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>> bone) and some under the covers stuffs exposed, but basically x3d
>>>>>>> hanim is indusry-standard best practices for complete
>>>>>>> documentation of
>>>>>>> a realtime animated character.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Later this has evolved for skeleton structures to serve as the basic
>>>>>>> model for motion capture data and as the corresponding structure for
>>>>>>> the mocap playback model.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I mean, this hanim has been the world standard for
>>>>>>> transportablity of
>>>>>>> basic structures and basic functionality. Wouldn't you expect to get
>>>>>>> something that represents the core factors for what most all
>>>>>>> realtime
>>>>>>> character animation tools would give you when you start with any
>>>>>>> default (fantasitc that there are now so many) humanoid or biped or
>>>>>>> something of that category? Of course, and that is true. See X3D
>>>>>>> HAnim
>>>>>>> LOA2. Some names are changed, but that is the generic skeleton.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The names may be changed or some hidden interfaces exposed, but
>>>>>>> if you
>>>>>>> look close you will see that x3d hanim does indeed represent
>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>> documentation required to build and animate the character. That
>>>>>>> can be
>>>>>>> important when you wish to carry your work from one commercial or
>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>> product to another. I mean you used to have to beg for binding and
>>>>>>> animation curves. At some authoring levels sometimes you can't even
>>>>>>> see that stuff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whatever the authoring system internal data forms, if they rig skin,
>>>>>>> then there may or may not be a human readable and kestroke editable
>>>>>>> listing of the skin vertex bindings and weights. X3D just says that
>>>>>>> this very basic stuff has to be in the flie in a logical place and
>>>>>>> reasonable form. Any authoring system worthy of your trust should be
>>>>>>> able to give you that list just in case you wanted to work with
>>>>>>> another tool and use your old rigging. Why is it so carefully
>>>>>>> defined
>>>>>>> in x3d hanim? Because that is the best way to preserve that type of
>>>>>>> data since basically, everybody has to do it that way down at the
>>>>>>> metal, to move the points ro positions that depend upon what time
>>>>>>> appears in the next frame.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's just way it is. The basic data in close to executable form
>>>>>>> readable and editable is what x3d hanim requires. Since it is so
>>>>>>> basic, data should be able to be exchanged between most any set of
>>>>>>> authoring tools and it is. Of course there might be some new
>>>>>>> technique(s) because the things advance, but those techniques either
>>>>>>> remain proprietary of have not yet made it into the public open
>>>>>>> source
>>>>>>> community so would ot appear in X3D.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No outright challenge here but look at what you get when you start
>>>>>>> with the default humanoid in any authoring system. Some might
>>>>>>> hook up
>>>>>>> the joints slightly differently with other names or use some other
>>>>>>> space than 'standard' hanim humanoid space but the basic goal is
>>>>>>> realism, Hey, I think best results when everything is drawn in
>>>>>>> 'standard' human space, dimensioned for your preferences. Like the
>>>>>>> hanim end-effector surface features are there because experimeters
>>>>>>> wanted to be able to define an actual location in human space
>>>>>>> relative
>>>>>>> to the skeleton. That was where the virtual doctor could touch the
>>>>>>> virtual surgical tool. Anyway, by the time the standard was set, it
>>>>>>> was pretty much decided that real machines would use quats to anmate
>>>>>>> but X3D stayed with axis-angle as the minimum requirement for
>>>>>>> transporting realtime animations (realtime always needs
>>>>>>> interpolators
>>>>>>> and all inbetweens, so sorry euler angles).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A Transform extended to a Joint adds some technical features and the
>>>>>>> hierarchal structure of Joint, connecting Segment, and Site(s) for
>>>>>>> surface and internal features are all standard vrml/x3d. Using the
>>>>>>> names Humanoid. Joint, Segment, and Site as names for the major
>>>>>>> functionalities of the basic humanoid with geometries bound to
>>>>>>> segments is accomplished by extending Transform using simple
>>>>>>> prototypes. To do the skin needs some pretty standard gem script to
>>>>>>> move the skin points as the skeleton is animated .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I mean that all the information about mesh and binding and what is
>>>>>>> supposed to happen when it is supposed to happen is very nicely
>>>>>>> composed. Of course x3d hanim is always interested in new names and
>>>>>>> locations and styles or techniques that are missing from anywhere in
>>>>>>> x3d, but basically it is all there. This reflects the data that is
>>>>>>> actually used to create the character and realtime animations in
>>>>>>> human-readable form. And it matches up with detailed vizualization
>>>>>>> technolofies like medical and cad and physics and is completely
>>>>>>> collada friendly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I said, the example I am interested in exploring is relatively
>>>>>>> simple and from what I have seen (with conversion from axis-angle to
>>>>>>> unitquats) can probably be represented lossless in glTF.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But this generic data design also allows for creating these
>>>>>>>> abstractions that would be much harder (if not impossible) to do
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the specialized approach that X3D is based on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> X3D is a generic data design because it defines generic forms of
>>>>>>> data
>>>>>>> needed to make and animate a common character. The data is indeed
>>>>>>> generic and no character animation that can produce animated
>>>>>>> characters is missing any of this data. Absent proprietary
>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>> they all use a skeleton and they all have geometry bound to
>>>>>>> connecting
>>>>>>> things, and they all use the same skin bindings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is specialized? The names and hierarchy? Well the names are
>>>>>>> probably specialized but the hierarchy and bindings are not. If i
>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>> the above right, then _if_ the generic data design has hard times
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the x3d approach of containing the data then the generic data design
>>>>>>> has big problems. I don't think that is what you said, but what part
>>>>>>> of the x3d data design is harder? Overall, the hanim is a very
>>>>>>> generic
>>>>>>> data design using very generic 3D hierarchies. Hanim is not at
>>>>>>> all an
>>>>>>> unusual or non-generic scenegraph structure or data structure so I
>>>>>>> don't understand the problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Besides, please look at some browsers that do a great job with x3d
>>>>>>> hanim. There were several more before they went missing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/JoeH-AnimKick1a.txt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is the text version of the example I am most interested in, in
>>>>>>> classic
>>>>>>> encoding because I thinki is easier to read. Don't use word wrap.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In reality, I don't care how the data is stored for runtime
>>>>>>> execution,
>>>>>>> I care about the readability of the documentation created at
>>>>>>> authortime. Sure, X3D HAnim may take a while to learn to read
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> the structure is complicated, but all time is not wasted because
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> are types of data common to most all efforts of humanoid animation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One piece of automation also used in character animation is precise,
>>>>>>> time-driven animation of parts of a geometry, like when a piece of
>>>>>>> skin to move independently of any joint rotations, In HAnim this is
>>>>>>> done by Displacer, You tell it which points to move and how much to
>>>>>>> move them then send it a weight, This is an important little tool.
>>>>>>> Again, the data and technique just represents a common way to do it.
>>>>>>> How would your project define such as operation?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks and Best,
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Slusallek"
>>>>>>> <philipp.slusallek at dfki.de>
>>>>>>> To: "Joe D Williams" <joedwil at earthlink.net>; "doug sanden"
>>>>>>> <highaspirations at hotmail.com>; "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'"
>>>>>>> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 12:21 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public]] V4.0 Opendiscussion/workshopon X3DHTML
>>>>>>> integration
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe it may even be illuminating to just read a paper to
>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>> the principles of other technologies and consider them for your own
>>>>>>>> design. Also, some more openness to other available technology
>>>>>>>> besides
>>>>>>>> X3D would actually help the discussion here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But we actually do have an implementation as well, which is used in
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> of our projects: See for example
>>>>>>>> https://xml3d.github.io/xml3d-examples/examples/xflowSkin/xflow-skin.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> simple skinned and animated characters that are handled using Xflow
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> describe the required processing on the triangle meshes. These are
>>>>>>>> animated characters exported to XML3D/Xflow directly from a
>>>>>>>> well-known game.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is just one of many ways of how Xflow can be used. Really, the
>>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>>> point of Xflow is the ability to describe very different processing
>>>>>>>> operations on various data sets in a scene in a declarative way.
>>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>> are also examples for image processing (e.g.
>>>>>>>> https://xml3d.github.io/xml3d-examples/examples/xflowIP/histogramm.html),
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> simple
>>>>>>>> Augmented Reality
>>>>>>>> (https://xml3d.github.io/xml3d-examples/examples/xflowAR/ar_flying_teapot.html),
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and others using the exact same basic technique. Our ongoing work
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> make this even simpler and support different HW mappings better.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is made possible by the generic data model in XML3D that I
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> alluded to several times in my email. It is already useful as nice
>>>>>>>> abstraction of GPU buffers but also allows for supporting
>>>>>>>> programmable
>>>>>>>> shading. But this generic data design also allows for creating
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> abstractions that would be much harder (if not impossible) to do
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the specialized approach that X3D is based on. However, it does
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> other way round: You can map the specialized nodes of X3D to the
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> general and generic functionality of XML3D/Xflow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think this highlights the difference between our approaches:
>>>>>>>> Hanim
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> selected one specific way of describing and handling animation and
>>>>>>>> skinning, which requires a node-specific implementation. On the
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> hand, we provide a small core engine for any such processing and
>>>>>>>> expose
>>>>>>>> it in a compact and declarative way. The engine can then analyze
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> optimize the resulting flow-graph, optimize it, and map it to the
>>>>>>>> available HW independent of what the specific computation and up
>>>>>>>> representing. On top of this, one can then use WebComponents to map
>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>> specific representation (such as Hanim) to this generic
>>>>>>>> representation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We also did a careful analysis and comparison to X3D/Hanim in our
>>>>>>>> papers
>>>>>>>> (see below for the links). There are several issues that we
>>>>>>>> identify:
>>>>>>>> Need to duplicate the geometry to apply different animations to the
>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>> model, or the fact that Hanim cannot handle tangent vectors as part
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the model, which may be required if a model has anisotropic
>>>>>>>> materials
>>>>>>>> that need the transformed tangent vectors as vertex attributes for
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> shader. It is very straight forward to add such processing to an
>>>>>>>> Xflow
>>>>>>>> graph. There are more arguments in the paper.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We also argue in the paper that Xflow is expressive enough to
>>>>>>>> handle
>>>>>>>> Hanim. Doing a full WebComponent implementation for Hanim is
>>>>>>>> left as
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> exercise for the reader :-). While certainly useful, we do not see
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> as the main target of our research work, sorry. But it should
>>>>>>>> not be
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> difficult exercise.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BTW, the relevant papers are here:
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> https://graphics.cg.uni-saarland.de/fileadmin/cguds/papers/2012/klein_web3d2012/xflow.pdf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> https://graphics.cg.uni-saarland.de/fileadmin/cguds/papers/2013/klein_web3d2013/xflow-ar.pdf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is also a IEEE CG&A extended version of the first paper here:
>>>>>>>> --  https://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/cg/2013/05/mcg2013050038.pdf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Philipp
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am 12.06.2016 um 05:52 schrieb Joe D Williams:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Philipp,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would study some of your work, but please help me esablish this
>>>>>>>>> confidence by showing me what you can do with some relatively
>>>>>>>>> complex
>>>>>>>>> X3D. This is skeleton animation of joints and segments as used
>>>>>>>>> everywhere (no matter which interfaces are actually exposed by the
>>>>>>>>> authoring system) and a deformable mesh skin bound to the skeleton
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> each skin vertex bound to one or more joint(s) nodes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V1.0/HAnim/ObjectInterfaces.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Skin animation is achieved by animating the joints in the
>>>>>>>>> skeleton's
>>>>>>>>> joint hierarachy then weighting each skin vertex displacement
>>>>>>>>> according
>>>>>>>>> to the bound joint(s) rotation (as used everywhere no matter which
>>>>>>>>> interfaces are actually exposed by the authoring system).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> some basics are here:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_animation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> is pretty much what X3D does either/both segment geometry (none on
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> model) or skin, like this one, and represents complete
>>>>>>>>> documentation of
>>>>>>>>> the model rigging and animations. Relative to the rest of the
>>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> character authoring and animation X3D covers a lot of ground. The
>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>> 'probem' I know X3D has is that we do not use quaterions for joint
>>>>>>>>> animation, which is now more or less industry glTF standard
>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> axis-angle used here. Well, also see that while the interpolators
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> linear, the keytimes may not always be constant intervals.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A couple of X3D browsers will do this fine and BSContact free
>>>>>>>>> is my
>>>>>>>>> reference.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a 'standard' LOA3 skeleton with skin vertices mostly taken
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> 'standard' surface feature points. Both skeleton and skin are
>>>>>>>>> drawn
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> approximately human scale, using the spec example dimensions as a
>>>>>>>>> basis.
>>>>>>>>> I use an IndexedFaceSet for the skin mesh and depend upon the
>>>>>>>>> 'standard'
>>>>>>>>> X3D browser feature of IFS to generate a default texure map so the
>>>>>>>>> texture stays bound to the skin as it moves.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I hope you can take a look at this because implementation
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> this basic character animation stuff is really not that easy
>>>>>>>>> and in
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> past we have seen X3D browser development stall at implementation
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> skeleton based skin animation. Note the hanim displacer node also
>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>> mesh deformation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Example is here:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/JoeH-AnimKick1a.x3dv
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and attached.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can get it in .x3d but this version has better documentation of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> skin-joint bindings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Best,
>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Slusallek"
>>>>>>>>> <philipp.slusallek at dfki.de>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Joe D Williams" <joedwil at earthlink.net>; "doug sanden"
>>>>>>>>> <highaspirations at hotmail.com>; "'X3D Graphics public mailing
>>>>>>>>> list'"
>>>>>>>>> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2016 3:17 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] [x3d] V4.0 Opendiscussion/workshopon
>>>>>>>>> X3DHTML
>>>>>>>>> integration
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the good discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But may I humbly suggest that you read our Xflow papers. We have
>>>>>>>>>> looked
>>>>>>>>>> at this problem very carefully and tried different options with
>>>>>>>>>> Xflow as
>>>>>>>>>> the result of this. Xflow describes a generic data modeling and
>>>>>>>>>> processing framework as a direct extension to HTML. It is even
>>>>>>>>>> independent of XML3D conceptually. I would even call it the most
>>>>>>>>>> important parts of our system.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Its data representation is very close to GPU buffers (by design)
>>>>>>>>>> and we
>>>>>>>>>> have shown that it can be mapped efficiently to very different
>>>>>>>>>> acceleration API (including plain JS, asm.js, ParallelJS, vertex
>>>>>>>>>> shaders, and others).The reason is that it is a pure functional
>>>>>>>>>> design
>>>>>>>>>> that is hard to do with X3D Routes for various reasons (discussed
>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>> papers).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Morphing, skinning, and image processing were actually the first
>>>>>>>>>> examples that we showed how to do with the system. Hanim can be
>>>>>>>>>> easily
>>>>>>>>>> mapped to Xflow (e.g. by a WebComponent), from where it can take
>>>>>>>>>> advantage of the generic HW acceleration without any further
>>>>>>>>>> coding. All
>>>>>>>>>> that is left on the JS side is a bit of bookkeeping, attribute
>>>>>>>>>> updates,
>>>>>>>>>> and the WebGL calls.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And with regard to the need of native implementations as
>>>>>>>>>> raised by
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> earlier: On a plain PC we could do something like 40-50 (would
>>>>>>>>>> have to
>>>>>>>>>> check the exact number) fairly detailed animated characters, each
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> their own morphing and skinning in a single scene in pure JS,
>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>> WITHOUT ANY ACCELERATION AT ALL, including rendering and all
>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>> stuff. Yes, faster and more efficient is always better, but
>>>>>>>>>> (i) we
>>>>>>>>>> should not do any premature optimizations unless we can show that
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> would actually make a big difference and (ii) this will not be
>>>>>>>>>> easy as
>>>>>>>>>> you should not underestimate the performance of JS with really
>>>>>>>>>> good JIT
>>>>>>>>>> compiler and well-formed code.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Unless we have SHOWN that there is a real problem, that JS CANNOT
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> pushed further AND there is sufficient significant interest by a
>>>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>>>> user base, the browser vendors will not even talk to us about a
>>>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>> implementation. And maintaining a fork is really, really hard --
>>>>>>>>>> trust
>>>>>>>>>> me that is where we started :-(.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And even more importantly, when we should ever get there we
>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>> better have an implementation core that is as small as possible.
>>>>>>>>>> Many
>>>>>>>>>> node types each with its own implementation is not the right
>>>>>>>>>> design for
>>>>>>>>>> that (IMHO). Something like Xflow that many nodes and routes
>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> mapped to seems, a much more useful and maintainable option.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Right now we are extending shade.js in a project with Intel to
>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>> handle the Xflow processing algorithms to be more general, which
>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>> allow us to have a single code that targets all possible
>>>>>>>>>> acceleration
>>>>>>>>>> targets. Right now you still need separate implementations for
>>>>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>>>>> target.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Philipp
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Am 10.06.2016 um 19:26 schrieb Joe D Williams:
>>>>>>>>>>>> e6 html integration > route/event/timer
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> These are details solved declaratively using .x3d using the
>>>>>>>>>>> abstractions
>>>>>>>>>>> of node event in and outs, timesensors, routes, interpolators,
>>>>>>>>>>> shaders,
>>>>>>>>>>> and Script directOuts...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in the <x3d> ... </x3d> environment, everything hat is not
>>>>>>>>>>> 'built-in' is
>>>>>>>>>>> created programatically using 'built-in' event emitters, event
>>>>>>>>>>> listeners, event processors, time devices, scripts, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So the big difference in event systems might be that in .html
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>> answers what time was it in the world when you last checked the
>>>>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>>>>>> while in ,x3d it is the time to use in creation of the next
>>>>>>>>>>> frame. So
>>>>>>>>>>> this declarative vs programatic just sets a low limit on how
>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>> animation automation ought to be included. Both .x3d and <x3d>
>>>>>>>>>>> ,,,
>>>>>>>>>>> </x3d> should preserve the basic event graph declarations.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This brings up where to stash these organizable lists of routes
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> interpolators.
>>>>>>>>>>> The user code of .html is not really designed for these detailed
>>>>>>>>>>> constructions and its basic premise is that the document should
>>>>>>>>>>> contain
>>>>>>>>>>> content, not massses of markup. So, are timers and interpolators
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> routes as used in .x3d content or markup? If they are markup,
>>>>>>>>>>> then it is
>>>>>>>>>>> clear they should be in style. Besides, in my trusty text editor
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> gives me a easily read independent event graph to play with.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Next, if I need to step outside the 'built-in' convenience
>>>>>>>>>>> abstractions,
>>>>>>>>>>> or simply to communicate with other players in the DOM which
>>>>>>>>>>> happens to
>>>>>>>>>>> be the current embeddiment of my <x3d> ,,, </x3d> then I need
>>>>>>>>>>> DOM
>>>>>>>>>>> event
>>>>>>>>>>> stuffs and probably a DOM script to deal with DOM events set on
>>>>>>>>>>> x3d
>>>>>>>>>>> syntax.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So, to me this is the first step: Decide how much of the
>>>>>>>>>>> automation is
>>>>>>>>>>> actually included within <x3d> ... </x3d>?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe one example is x3d hanim where we define real skin
>>>>>>>>>>> vertices
>>>>>>>>>>> bound
>>>>>>>>>>> to real joints to achieve realistic deformable skin. In HAnim
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>> level of animation complexity is a realistic skeleton of joints
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> simple binding of shapes to segments in a heirarchy where joint
>>>>>>>>>>> center
>>>>>>>>>>> rotations can produce realitic movements of the skeleton. As a
>>>>>>>>>>> joint
>>>>>>>>>>> center rotates then its children segments and joints move as
>>>>>>>>>>> expected
>>>>>>>>>>> for the skeleton dynamics. For seamless animations across
>>>>>>>>>>> segment
>>>>>>>>>>> shapes, then the technique is to bind each skin vertex to one or
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> joint objects, then move the skin some weighted displacement as
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> joint(s) center(s) rotates.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To document this completely in human-readable and editable form,
>>>>>>>>>>> as is
>>>>>>>>>>> the goal of .x3d HAnim, is very tedious, but that is exactly how
>>>>>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>>>>>> actually finally computed in the wide world of rigging and in
>>>>>>>>>>> computationally intensive. Thus, it makes sense for <x3d> ...
>>>>>>>>>>> </x3d> to
>>>>>>>>>>> support shapes bound to segments that are children of joints but
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> demand full support for deformable skin. Hopefully the
>>>>>>>>>>> javascript
>>>>>>>>>>> programmers that are now building the basic foundations to
>>>>>>>>>>> support x3d
>>>>>>>>>>> using webgl features will prove me wrong, but without very high
>>>>>>>>>>> performance support for reasonable density deformable skin, this
>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>> not need to be supported in the (2.) html environment. Of course
>>>>>>>>>>> standalone and embeddable players can do this because they will
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> access to the high performance code and acceleration that may
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> available in .html with webgl.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for thinking about this stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/hanimLOA3A8320130611Allanimtests.x3dv
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/hanimLOA3A8320130611Allanimtests.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/JoeH-AnimKick1a.x3dv
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "doug sanden"
>>>>>>>>>>> <highaspirations at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 7:03 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] [x3d] V4.0 Opendiscussion/workshopon
>>>>>>>>>>> X3DHTML
>>>>>>>>>>> integration
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 3-step 'Creative Strategy'
>>>>>>>>>>> http://cup.columbia.edu/book/creative-strategy/9780231160520
>>>>>>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/airdrieinnovationinstitute/creative-strategy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. break it down (into problem elements)
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. search (other domains for element solutions)
>>>>>>>>>>> 3. recombine (element solutions into total solution)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> e - problem element
>>>>>>>>>>> d - domain offering solution(s) to problem elements
>>>>>>>>>>> e-d matrix
>>>>>>>>>>> ______d1________d2______d3__________d4
>>>>>>>>>>> e1
>>>>>>>>>>> e2
>>>>>>>>>>> e3
>>>>>>>>>>> e4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Applied to what I think is the overall problem: 'which v4
>>>>>>>>>>> technologies/specifications' or 'gaining consensus on v4 before
>>>>>>>>>>> siggraph'.
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if that's the only problem or _the_ problem, so
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> be more of an exercise to see if Creative Strategy works in the
>>>>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>>>> world, by using what I can piece together from what your're
>>>>>>>>>>> saying as an
>>>>>>>>>>> example.
>>>>>>>>>>> Then I'll leave it to you guys to go through the 3 steps for
>>>>>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>>>>> the true problems are.
>>>>>>>>>>> Problem: v4 specification finalization
>>>>>>>>>>> Step1 break it down:
>>>>>>>>>>> e1 continuity/stability in changing/shifting and multiplying
>>>>>>>>>>> target
>>>>>>>>>>> technologies
>>>>>>>>>>> e2 html integration > protos
>>>>>>>>>>> e3 html integration > proto scripts
>>>>>>>>>>> e4 html integration > inline vs Dom
>>>>>>>>>>> e5 html integration > node/component simplification
>>>>>>>>>>> e6 html integration > route/event/timer
>>>>>>>>>>> e7 html integration > feature simplification ie SAI
>>>>>>>>>>> e8 siggraph promotion opportunity, among/against competing 3D
>>>>>>>>>>> formats /
>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Step 2 search other domains
>>>>>>>>>>> d1 compiler domain > take a high-level cross platform language
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> compile it for target CPU ARM, x86, x64
>>>>>>>>>>> d2 wrangling: opengl extension wrangler domain > add extensions
>>>>>>>>>>> to 15
>>>>>>>>>>> year old opengl32.dll to make it modern opengl
>>>>>>>>>>> d3 polyfill: web browser technologies > polyfill - program
>>>>>>>>>>> against an
>>>>>>>>>>> assumed modern browser, and use polyfill.js to discover current
>>>>>>>>>>> browser
>>>>>>>>>>> capaiblities and fill in any gaps by emulating
>>>>>>>>>>> d4 unrolling: mangled-name copies pasted into same scope - don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>> what domain its from, but what John is doing when
>>>>>>>>>>> proto-expanding, its
>>>>>>>>>>> like what freewrl did for 10 years for protos
>>>>>>>>>>> d5 adware / iframe / webcomponents > separate scopes
>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>> https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2015/07/14/bringing-componentization-to-the-web-an-overview-of-web-components/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.benfarrell.com/2015/10/26/es6-web-components-part-1-a-man-without-a-framework/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - React, dojo, polymer, angular, es6, webcomponents.js polyfill,
>>>>>>>>>>> shadoow
>>>>>>>>>>> dom,import, same-origin iframe
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> d6 server > when a client wants something, and says what its
>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities are, then serve them what they are capable of
>>>>>>>>>>> displaying
>>>>>>>>>>> d7 viral videos
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (its hard to do a table in turtle graphics, so I'll do e/d
>>>>>>>>>>> lists)
>>>>>>>>>>> e1 / d1 compiler: have one high level format which is technology
>>>>>>>>>>> agnostic, with LTS long term stablility, and
>>>>>>>>>>> compile/translate to
>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>> other formats which are more technology dependent. Need to
>>>>>>>>>>> show/prove
>>>>>>>>>>> the high level can be transformed/ is transformable to all
>>>>>>>>>>> desired
>>>>>>>>>>> targets like html Dom variants, html Inline variants, and
>>>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>>>> variants
>>>>>>>>>>> e4 / d1 including compiling to inline or dom variants
>>>>>>>>>>> e1 / d6 server-time transformation or selection: gets client
>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities in request, and either
>>>>>>>>>>> - a) transforms a generic format to target capabilities variant
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> - b) selects from among prepared variants to match target
>>>>>>>>>>> capaibilties,
>>>>>>>>>>> e5 / d1 compiler: can compile static geometry from high level
>>>>>>>>>>> nurbs/extrusions to indexedfaceset depending on target
>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities,
>>>>>>>>>>> need to have a STATIC keyword in case extrusion is animated?
>>>>>>>>>>> e6 / d1 compiler transforms routes, timers, events to target
>>>>>>>>>>> platform
>>>>>>>>>>> equivalents
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> e5 / d2 extension wrangling > depending on capaiblities of
>>>>>>>>>>> target,
>>>>>>>>>>> during transform stage, substitute Protos for high level nodes,
>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>> target browser can't support the component/level directly
>>>>>>>>>>> e5 / d3 polyfill > when a target doesn't support some feature,
>>>>>>>>>>> polyfill
>>>>>>>>>>> so it runs enough to support a stable format
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> e8 / d7 create viral video of web3d consortium
>>>>>>>>>>> deciding/trying-to-decide
>>>>>>>>>>> something. Maybe creative strategy step 3: decide among matrix
>>>>>>>>>>> elements
>>>>>>>>>>> at a session at siggraph with audience watching or participating
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> special "help us decide" siggraph session.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> e2 / d5 webcomponents and proto scripts: create scripts with/in
>>>>>>>>>>> different webcomponent scope;
>>>>>>>>>>> e3 / d5 webcomponents make Scene and ProtoInstance both in a
>>>>>>>>>>> webcomponent, with hierarchy of webcomponents for nested
>>>>>>>>>>> protoInstances.
>>>>>>>>>>> e2+e3 / d4 unrolling + protos > unroll protos and scripts a)
>>>>>>>>>>> upstream/on
>>>>>>>>>>> server or transformer b) in client on demand
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> e7 / d6 server simplifies featuers ie SAI or not based on client
>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities
>>>>>>>>>>> e7 / d1 compiler compiles out features not supported by target
>>>>>>>>>>> client
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ____d1___d2___d3___d4___d5___d6___d7
>>>>>>>>>>> e1 __ * _______________________ *
>>>>>>>>>>> e2 _________________ *___*
>>>>>>>>>>> e3 _________________ *___*
>>>>>>>>>>> e4 _*
>>>>>>>>>>> e5 _*_____*____*
>>>>>>>>>>> e6 _*
>>>>>>>>>>> e7 _*_________________________*
>>>>>>>>>>> e8 ________________________________*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Or something like that,
>>>>>>>>>>> But would Step 3 creatively recombine element solutions into
>>>>>>>>>>> total
>>>>>>>>>>> solution still result in deadlock? Or can that deadlock be
>>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> problem elements, and domain solutions applied? For example does
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> compiler/transformer workflow idea automatically solve current
>>>>>>>>>>> deadlock,
>>>>>>>>>>> or does deadlock need more specific attention ie breakdown into
>>>>>>>>>>> elements
>>>>>>>>>>> of deadlock, searching domains for solutions to deadlock
>>>>>>>>>>> elements
>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI)
>>>>>>>>>> GmbH
>>>>>>>>>> Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Geschäftsführung:
>>>>>>>>>>  Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>>>>>>>>>>  Dr. Walter Olthoff
>>>>>>>>>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>>>>>>>>>  Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>>>>>>>>>> VAT/USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148 646 973, Steuernummer:  19/673/0060/3
>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH
>>>>>>>> Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Geschäftsführung:
>>>>>>>>  Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>>>>>>>>  Dr. Walter Olthoff
>>>>>>>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>>>>>>>  Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>>>>>>>> VAT/USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148 646 973, Steuernummer:  19/673/0060/3
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH
>>>>>> Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Geschäftsführung:
>>>>>>  Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>>>>>>  Dr. Walter Olthoff
>>>>>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>>>>>  Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>>>>>> VAT/USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148 646 973, Steuernummer:  19/673/0060/3
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH
>>>> Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>>>
>>>> Geschäftsführung:
>>>>  Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>>>>  Dr. Walter Olthoff
>>>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>>>  Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>>
>>>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>>>> VAT/USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148 646 973, Steuernummer:  19/673/0060/3
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH
>> Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>
>> Geschäftsführung:
>>  Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>>  Dr. Walter Olthoff
>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>  Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>
>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>> VAT/USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148 646 973, Steuernummer:  19/673/0060/3
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
> 

-- 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH
Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern

Geschäftsführung:
  Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
  Dr. Walter Olthoff
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
  Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
VAT/USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148 646 973, Steuernummer:  19/673/0060/3
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: philipp_slusallek.vcf
Type: text/x-vcard
Size: 441 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/attachments/20160617/38c3e9c4/attachment-0001.vcf>

More information about the x3d-public mailing list