[x3d-public] Preliminary Announcement for XSeen: problems in motivation phrasing

[Leonard Daly]

Don,


> Hi Leonard.  It was great to see that your project is progressing - 
> congratulations. Implementing and evaluating possible improvements to 
> X3D is always good.

Thank you. That is much appreciated.

>
> However your current motivation section has problems:

I always appreciate comments to help word things better, but in this 
case there is no problem in motivation phrasing.

X3D in all public releases of the standard is not DOM integrated. There 
are no public documents that explicitly show how a future generation of 
X3D would be DOM integrated. That may happen in the future, but that has 
been worked on without public results for over three years.

I have spent less than 3 calendar months part time putting XSeen 
together with the very explicit purpose of being DOM integrated. It uses 
DOM events, HTML scripts, and WebGL rendering that differ in detail from 
what X3D does. I contend that neither X3DOM nor Cobweb are fully 
integrated with DOM. Parts of their internal structure is exposed to and 
interacts with DOM, but at least the event model is not X3D or not DOM.

I never claims that X3D was not declarative. In fact with few exceptions 
(Shaders in particular), I think X3D is an excellent model as the design 
of a declarative language. The language is quite rich and expressive. To 
go beyond the basics in A-Frame requires a developer (someplace in the 
chain) writing JavaScript code and integrating it with the A-Frame API.

Leonard Daly





>
> =======================
> "Why Another 3D Language
>
> Neither X3D nor A-Frame are designed as a declarative, DOM-Integrated 
> language. A-Frame has several deficiencies that make it not suitable 
> for the enterprise (see the presentation "Declarative VR/3D 
> Environment" given at SVVR2017). X3D is not designed for the DOM. 
> XSeen is very explicitly designed as a language that is fully 
> integrated with the DOM and has the enterprise features of X3D."
> =======================
>
> As you well know, X3D is not a frozen capability and X3D integration 
> with DOM/HTML5 is the primary goal of X3D version 4. This several-year 
> effort continues to progress steadily.  Multiple major implementations 
> have integrated X3D and DOM/HTML5: X3DOM and Cobweb.  Further, 
> VRML/X3D design has always been declarative. Successes keep 
> accumulating, lessons learned keep growing, and further improvements 
> keep emerging thanks to cooperative work by many people.
>
> Saying otherwise is incorrect and confusing to others interested in 
> learning more about Web-based 3D technologies.
>
> I recommend that you improve your motivation statements. Correctly 
> identifying strengths of relevant technologies makes opportunities for 
> progress more understandable.  Getting clearer also helps new work 
> constructively influence ongoing X3D version 4 development activities, 
> benefiting everyone.
>
> Hope this helps.  Thanks for your many contributions and continuing 
> efforts.
>
>
> On 6/26/2017 12:46 PM, Leonard Daly wrote:
>> The latest version of XSeen (V0.3) has been pushed to GitHub. It 
>> includes initial work on Animation. After looking at many different 
>> kinds of implementations of 3D animations, I concluded that getting 
>> the developer involved in the rendering pipeline for each frame was 
>> not needed, nor desirable. X3D though the use of events for each 
>> stage of the pipeline does put the developer in the "loop" and forces 
>> inefficiencies, especially for pre-defined (key-frame) animations.
>>
>> While XSeen does not yet offer full key-frame animation (just 
>> start/end points + transition style), it does illustrate how to do 
>> key-frame animation without the developer in the middle of each 
>> frame. This structure does hint at how the developer can get access 
>> when needed.
>>
>> In addition to code updates, there is now an XSeen project page 
>> (http://realism.com/xseen) where all of the test cases are listed. 
>> Each test case can be executed from the web page and displays as an 
>> overlay.
>>
>> * XSeen project page: http://realism.com/xseen
>> * XSeen code on GitHub: https://github.com/DrX3D/XSeen/tree/development
>> * XSeen language definition: 
>> http://tools.realism.com/specification/xseen/language-definition
>> * XSeen internals documentation: 
>> http://tools.realism.com/specification/xseen/xseen-internals
>>
>> XSeen is built upon the architecture of X3D and A-Frame. The 
>> JavaScript library is supported by THREE and TWEEN plus pieces 
>> extracted from X3DOM. John Carlson provided the JSON to XML 
>> converter. It is early-stage work and not everything is fully 
>> developed out or functional. Please report any issues you have with 
>> the software or documentation. Contributions are always welcome. 
>> XSeen code is joint licensed as MIT / GPU. XSeen documentation is 
>> licensed as Creative Commons Share-Alike (CC BY-SA).
>>
>> -- 
>> *Leonard Daly*
>> 3D Systems & Cloud Consultant
>> LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair
>> President, Daly Realism - /Creating the Future/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> x3d-public at web3d.org
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>
> all the best, Don


-- 
*Leonard Daly*
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair
President, Daly Realism - /Creating the Future/
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