[x3d-public] both X3DOM and X_ITE.

Tue May 29 04:44:52 PDT 2018

There are stubs only, no functionality at this point.-Andreas

On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 6:32 AM, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can we assess what is missing in X3DOM for Native HAnim tags?
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> https://github.com/x3dom/x3dom/tree/master/src/nodes/H-Anim
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> Thanks,
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> John
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> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
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> From: Joseph D Williams
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 12:29 AM
> To: Andreas Plesch
> Cc: John Carlson; x3dom mlist; X3D Graphics public mailing list
> Subject: RE: both X3DOM and X_ITE.
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> Sounds like something you really need a authoring system for.
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> Fortunately, x3d can create a fine authortime and a fine runtime, and even
> mix the two.
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> Thanks and Best,
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> Joe
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> From: Andreas Plesch
> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 8:20 PM
> To: Joseph D Williams
> Cc: John Carlson; x3dom mlist; X3D Graphics public mailing list
> Subject: Re: both X3DOM and X_ITE.
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> Ok, I will try to take out the scripts and make the example work with
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> x3dom and John's expander, maybe further simplify. The next step would
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> be to take a stab at blindly porting the proto's to x3dom and thereby
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> discover potential problems.
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> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 7:26 PM, Joseph D Williams
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> <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:
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>> Real fine, Andreas. Nancy is a ‘simple’ humanoid where simple means that
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>> geometry is child of segment which gets driven by joint. When the joint
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>> moves a segment, then the geometry moves as expected. Simple means the
>> basic
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>> hierarchy but no continuous-mesh skin.
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> Simple or Basic humanoid may be good target target then. Perhaps Basic
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> is in a Profile ? I should look at the new spec.
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>> As you can see from the protos, nothing special about x3d is required
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>> because x3d is already so special – that is unless you wanna get some real
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>> skin in the game.
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>> Yes, there is no script required to do that ‘simple’ character, and the
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>> protos do not require any scripting.
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> ok.
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>> The Nancy scripts are derived from the protos given in HAnim Part 1 Annex
>> A
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>> examples (VRML at this moment, but easy to figure out). So for a basic
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>> humanoid there is nothing really new except the names of the various
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>> humanoid skeleton and skin objects. Even the animations are completely
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>> standard interpolators. Again, the only tough part is getting the skin to
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>> work.
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>> Also please notice in the spec where it is possible to create the
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>> continuous-mesh skin from selected vertices of geometry that is part of a
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>> segment. That is a possible way to leverage from geometries of the
>> segments
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>> to a full continuous-mesh surface.
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> Sounds like something you really need a authoring system for.
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> -Andreas
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>> A collection is here:
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>> http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/0MainStageScene0818.x3dv
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>> http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/HAnimCollection20130818.zip
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>> http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/JoeX3D/JoeX3D.htm
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>> some other pieces:
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>> Thanks and Best,
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>> Joe
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>> http://hypermultimedia.com/acontents.htm
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>> From: Andreas Plesch
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>> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 3:28 PM
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>> To: Joseph D Williams
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>> Cc: John Carlson; x3dom mlist; X3D Graphics public mailing list
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>> Subject: Re: both X3DOM and X_ITE.
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>> A quick follow up:
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>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/NancyDivingProtoInstancesIndex.html
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>> seems to be a good example for proto-based HAnim.
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>> It works in x_ite and perhaps is expandable.
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>> The scripts do not seem to part of the proto's ? If not, perhaps it is
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>> possible to simplify and take those out ?
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>> -Andreas
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>> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
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>> wrote:
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>>> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Joseph D Williams
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>>> <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:
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>>>>
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>>>> From: Andreas Plesch
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>> There just does not seem a lot of demand or requests by users or
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>>>>> customers. Of course, this may be a chicken and egg problem.
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>>>>
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>>>> And, that if you hae soething that works, like contact and instant,
>>>> maybe
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>>>> you don’t need to complain.
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>>>>
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>>> Or on the web look for other,widely available technologies.
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>>>>
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>>>>> Contributions to x3dom or x_ite are always welcome, in any case.
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>>>>
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>>>> Great a contribution to either is a contribution to X3D.
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>>> Well said.
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>>>>
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>>>>> For x3dom, my interest would be probably the glTF angle. glTF has
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>>>>> character animation. Here is an example:
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.donmccurdy.com/2017/11/06/creating-animated-gltf-characters-with-mixamo-and-blender/>
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>>>>
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>>>> Great, I will look. The basic x3d hanim skeleton, bindings, animations,
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>>>> and
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>>>> geometries can be stored in gltf. I hope I can look back in the hanim
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>>>> archives to see a comparison I did. No doubt gltf can transport the good
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>>>> stuff with the only problem that gltf uses unit quats instead of
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>>>> axis-angle.
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>>>>
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>>> x3dom uses quats internally anyways, I think rotation field values are
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>>> immediately converted at parsing.
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>>>>
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>>>>> The best explanation, apart from studying glTF loaders, is apparently
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>>>>> in this figure, sorry about that:
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KhronosGroup/glTF/master/specification/2.0/figures/gltfOverview-2.0.0a.png
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>>>>
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>>>> OK, I will look for more recent info, but I don’t think anything in this
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>>>> has
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>>>> changed. Structure and data – names may be different but the data and
>>>> its
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>>>> application is the same. Now I know there may be some new tech but for
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>>>> the
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>>>> basics stuf, not much has changed in the last 20 years since hanim was
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>>>> specified.
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>>>
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>>> The glTF spec. itself, I think, refers to the figure to explain meaning.
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>>>>> translation of a simple glTF character to an HAnim humanoid would be a
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>>>>> good first step.
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>>>>
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>>>> A better first step would be to transcode an HAnim humanoid into gltf
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>>>> back again. From what I saw it would work. After all, it is all the same
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>>>> structure and same data. I was going to work on the Boxman and the
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>>>> JoeKick
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>>>> models in the x3d hanim example archives.
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>>>
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>>> Well, these are two steps. The simplest rigged skining glTF example seems
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>>> to be:
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>>> https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glTF-Sample-Models/tree/master/2.0/RiggedSimple
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>>>>
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>>>>> A functional, minimal subset of HAnim of nodes and/or a Proto-based
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>>>>> implementation of the nodes would also help implementers.
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>>>>
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>>>> Of course we have the proto-based nodes for HAnim where the geometries
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>>>> are
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>>>> children of Segments (bones) and we animate the skeleton. A prototype
>>>> for
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>>>> seamless skin animation is Boxman in x3d hanim archives - it needs a
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>>>> fancy
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>>>> script to move skin. Since there are no other features of x3d that
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>>>> approximate the way skin is animated, there are no scriptless
>>>> prototypes.
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>>>
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>>> Ok: Here is the link:
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>>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/HAnimPrototypesIndex.html
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>>> But I do not see scripts ?
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>>>
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>>> Will there be an proto update for the new version of HAnim ?
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>>>
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>>>>> A main challenge will be probably the requirement to have vertex
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>>>>> geometry manipulation in a shader on the GPU. This is done only for
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>>>>> displacement textures of a CommonSurfaceShader node currently in
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>>>>> x3dom.
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>>>
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>>>> Yes, we need to control individual ‘skin’ vertices according to a simple
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>>>> weighting algorithm depending upon rotation of one or more joints. That
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>>>> has
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>>>> been a problem, yet it is so basic, that and morph shape, that we should
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>>>> have both features outside the Humanoid container.
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>>>
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>>> Yes, morphing seems generally useful. I think glTF may use weighted
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>>> matrices but not sure.
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>>>
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>>>> If anyone wants to learn character animation, anything you learn about
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>>>> x3d
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>>>> hanim will not be a waste of time. X3d hanim still documents an industry
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>>>> standard approach where inputs were taken from all major toolmakers
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>>>> because
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>>>> strangely, even back in the late 1990’s there was great input from users
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>>>> to
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>>>> the biggies that they had to allow data to be exported and transported
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>>>> between applications. Only the names were changed to prevent favoritism
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>>>> and
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>>>> preserve innocence – ooh, and to bring the secretive data structures and
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>>>> bindings out into the open.
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>>>
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>>> Ok. I will say that the HAnim prototypes which do not need scripts
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>>> should be possible, even straightforward to port to x3dom and probably
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>>> x_ite native nodes. John's protoexpander probably already could deal
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>>> with those. So the main challenge probably really is the GPU based
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>>> vertex displacing.
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>>>
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>>> Is there any use in having the Grouping/Transform type HAnim nodes only ?
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>>>
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>>> Best, -Andreas
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>>>
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>>>>
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>>>> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 10:42 AM, Joseph D Williams
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>>>>
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>>>> <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:
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>>>>
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>>>>>> both X3DOM and X_ITE …
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>>>>
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>>>>> The discussions about both X3DOM and X_ITE are, to me, missing a very
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>>>>> important feature. Neither of these tools can do HAnim skeleton
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>>>>> controlled
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>>>>> deformable skin. This is a very important feature, lending itself to
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>>>>> many
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>>>>> important applications in addition to HAnim. There have been several
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>>>>> discussions about the hanim joint(s) to deformable skin bindings and as
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>>>>> far
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>>>>> as I have seen, there is no doubt that the way x3d specifies the basic,
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>>>>> most
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>>>>> simple, and most transportable technique to achieve the result. So, as
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>>>>> the
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>>>>> HAnim standard takes the next step, why not move a bit toward
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>>>>> implementing
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>>>>> this important capability in your browsers. BSContact does it, I think
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>>>>> Instant does it mostly but x3dom and x_ite don’t.
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>>>>> Thanks and Best,
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>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>> Joe
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>> --
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>>>>
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>>>> Andreas Plesch
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>>>>
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>>>> Waltham, MA 02453
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>> --
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>>> Andreas Plesch
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>>> Waltham, MA 02453
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>> --
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>> Andreas Plesch
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>> Waltham, MA 02453
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> --
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> Andreas Plesch
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> Waltham, MA 02453
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-- 
Andreas Plesch
Waltham, MA 02453