[x3d-public] both X3DOM and X_ITE.

[John Carlson]

Yes, great to see other people using the proto expander!

I don’t believe it’s native hanim, I believe it’s proto hanim.

So what’s next?
John

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Andreas Plesch
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 2:37 PM
To: Joseph D Williams
Cc: John Carlson; x3dom mlist; X3D Graphics public mailing list
Subject: Re: both X3DOM and X_ITE.

The Nancy prototypes example does not have scripts and was therefore
easier to adapt. It turns out the included HUD was the only obstacle
for have it work with x3dom and the protoexpander:

https://x-ite-nancy-protos.glitch.me/index.xhtml
uses
https://x-ite-nancy-protos.glitch.me/NancyPrototypesNoHUD.json

The HUD reorientation routing is disabled here but the animation buttons work.

So this should make this example a good target for basic, native hanim.

http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/HAnim/ObjectInterfaces.html
http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/hanim.html

are the specifications to go by ?

Are Protos in http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/HAnim/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA0ExampleSourceInVRML

the same as  the Nancy protos ?

-Andreas

On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 11:20 PM, Andreas Plesch
<andreasplesch at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, I will try to take out the scripts and make the example work with
> x3dom and John's expander, maybe further simplify. The next step would
> be to take a stab at blindly porting the proto's to x3dom and thereby
> discover potential problems.
>
> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 7:26 PM, Joseph D Williams
> <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Real fine, Andreas. Nancy is a ‘simple’ humanoid where simple means that
>> geometry is child of segment which gets driven by joint. When the joint
>> moves a segment, then the geometry moves as expected. Simple means the basic
>> hierarchy but no continuous-mesh skin.
>
> Simple or Basic humanoid may be good target target then. Perhaps Basic
> is in a Profile ? I should look at the new spec.
>
>> As you can see from the protos, nothing special about x3d is required
>> because x3d is already so special – that is unless you wanna get some real
>> skin in the game.
>>
>> Yes, there is no script required to do that ‘simple’ character, and the
>> protos do not require any scripting.
>
> ok.
>
>> The Nancy scripts are derived from the protos given in HAnim Part 1 Annex A
>> examples (VRML at this moment, but easy to figure out). So for a basic
>> humanoid there is nothing really new except the names of the various
>> humanoid skeleton and skin objects. Even the animations are completely
>> standard interpolators. Again, the only tough part is getting the skin to
>> work.
>>
>> Also please notice in the spec where it is possible to create the
>> continuous-mesh skin from selected vertices of geometry that is part of a
>> segment. That is a possible way to leverage from geometries of the segments
>> to a full continuous-mesh surface.
>
> Sounds like something you really need a authoring system for.
>
> -Andreas
>
>> A collection is here:
>>
>> http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/0MainStageScene0818.x3dv
>>
>> http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/HAnimCollection20130818.zip
>>
>> http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/JoeX3D/JoeX3D.htm
>>
>> some other pieces:
>>
>> Thanks and Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> http://hypermultimedia.com/acontents.htm
>>
>> From: Andreas Plesch
>> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 3:28 PM
>> To: Joseph D Williams
>> Cc: John Carlson; x3dom mlist; X3D Graphics public mailing list
>> Subject: Re: both X3DOM and X_ITE.
>>
>>
>>
>> A quick follow up:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/NancyDivingProtoInstancesIndex.html
>>
>>
>>
>> seems to be a good example for proto-based HAnim.
>>
>>
>>
>> It works in x_ite and perhaps is expandable.
>>
>>
>>
>> The scripts do not seem to part of the proto's ? If not, perhaps it is
>>
>> possible to simplify and take those out ?
>>
>>
>>
>> -Andreas
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Joseph D Williams
>>
>>> <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> From: Andreas Plesch
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> There just does not seem a lot of demand or requests by users or
>>
>>>>> customers. Of course, this may be a chicken and egg problem.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> And, that if you hae soething that works, like contact and instant, maybe
>>
>>>> you don’t need to complain.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>> Or on the web look for other,widely available technologies.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Contributions to x3dom or x_ite are always welcome, in any case.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Great a contribution to either is a contribution to X3D.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>> Well said.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> For x3dom, my interest would be probably the glTF angle. glTF has
>>
>>>>> character animation. Here is an example:
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.donmccurdy.com/2017/11/06/creating-animated-gltf-characters-with-mixamo-and-blender/>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Great, I will look. The basic x3d hanim skeleton, bindings, animations,
>>>> and
>>
>>>> geometries can be stored in gltf. I hope I can look back in the hanim
>>
>>>> archives to see a comparison I did. No doubt gltf can transport the good
>>
>>>> stuff with the only problem that gltf uses unit quats instead of
>>>> axis-angle.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>> x3dom uses quats internally anyways, I think rotation field values are
>>
>>> immediately converted at parsing.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> The best explanation, apart from studying glTF loaders, is apparently
>>
>>>>> in this figure, sorry about that:
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KhronosGroup/glTF/master/specification/2.0/figures/gltfOverview-2.0.0a.png
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> OK, I will look for more recent info, but I don’t think anything in this
>>>> has
>>
>>>> changed. Structure and data – names may be different but the data and its
>>
>>>> application is the same. Now I know there may be some new tech but for
>>>> the
>>
>>>> basics stuf, not much has changed in the last 20 years since hanim was
>>
>>>> specified.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The glTF spec. itself, I think, refers to the figure to explain meaning.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>> translation of a simple glTF character to an HAnim humanoid would be a
>>
>>>>> good first step.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> A better first step would be to transcode an HAnim humanoid into gltf and
>>
>>>> back again. From what I saw it would work. After all, it is all the same
>>
>>>> structure and same data. I was going to work on the Boxman and the
>>>> JoeKick
>>
>>>> models in the x3d hanim example archives.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Well, these are two steps. The simplest rigged skining glTF example seems
>>> to be:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glTF-Sample-Models/tree/master/2.0/RiggedSimple
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> A functional, minimal subset of HAnim of nodes and/or a Proto-based
>>
>>>>> implementation of the nodes would also help implementers.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Of course we have the proto-based nodes for HAnim where the geometries
>>>> are
>>
>>>> children of Segments (bones) and we animate the skeleton. A prototype for
>>
>>>> seamless skin animation is Boxman in x3d hanim archives - it needs a
>>>> fancy
>>
>>>> script to move skin. Since there are no other features of x3d that
>>
>>>> approximate the way skin is animated, there are no scriptless prototypes.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Ok: Here is the link:
>>
>>>
>>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/HAnimPrototypesIndex.html
>>
>>>
>>
>>> But I do not see scripts ?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Will there be an proto update for the new version of HAnim ?
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>> A main challenge will be probably the requirement to have vertex
>>
>>>>> geometry manipulation in a shader on the GPU. This is done only for
>>
>>>>> displacement textures of a CommonSurfaceShader node currently in
>>
>>>>> x3dom.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> Yes, we need to control individual ‘skin’ vertices according to a simple
>>
>>>> weighting algorithm depending upon rotation of one or more joints. That
>>>> has
>>
>>>> been a problem, yet it is so basic, that and morph shape, that we should
>>
>>>> have both features outside the Humanoid container.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Yes, morphing seems generally useful. I think glTF may use weighted
>>
>>> matrices but not sure.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> If anyone wants to learn character animation, anything you learn about
>>>> x3d
>>
>>>> hanim will not be a waste of time. X3d hanim still documents an industry
>>
>>>> standard approach where inputs were taken from all major toolmakers
>>>> because
>>
>>>> strangely, even back in the late 1990’s there was great input from users
>>>> to
>>
>>>> the biggies that they had to allow data to be exported and transported
>>
>>>> between applications. Only the names were changed to prevent favoritism
>>>> and
>>
>>>> preserve innocence – ooh, and to bring the secretive data structures and
>>
>>>> bindings out into the open.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Ok. I will say that the HAnim prototypes which do not need scripts
>>
>>> should be possible, even straightforward to port to x3dom and probably
>>
>>> x_ite native nodes. John's protoexpander probably already could deal
>>
>>> with those. So the main challenge probably really is the GPU based
>>
>>> vertex displacing.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Is there any use in having the Grouping/Transform type HAnim nodes only ?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Best, -Andreas
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 10:42 AM, Joseph D Williams
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> both X3DOM and X_ITE …
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> The discussions about both X3DOM and X_ITE are, to me, missing a very
>>
>>>>> important feature. Neither of these tools can do HAnim skeleton
>>>>> controlled
>>
>>>>> deformable skin. This is a very important feature, lending itself to
>>>>> many
>>
>>>>> important applications in addition to HAnim. There have been several
>>
>>>>> discussions about the hanim joint(s) to deformable skin bindings and as
>>
>>>>> far
>>
>>>>> as I have seen, there is no doubt that the way x3d specifies the basic,
>>
>>>>> most
>>
>>>>> simple, and most transportable technique to achieve the result. So, as
>>>>> the
>>
>>>>> HAnim standard takes the next step, why not move a bit toward
>>>>> implementing
>>
>>>>> this important capability in your browsers. BSContact does it, I think
>>
>>>>> Instant does it mostly but x3dom and x_ite don’t.
>>
>>>>> Thanks and Best,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Joe




-- 
Andreas Plesch
Waltham, MA 02453

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