[x3d-public] [x3d] X3D Working Group meeting 19 OCT 2018 minutes: github mirroring, driving towards X3D interoperability

Tue Oct 23 13:43:47 PDT 2018

Github as a safety net for sourceforge? Idk

I have some frustration doing svn updates.  Of tooltips and x3d/content.

John

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:21 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:

> (Changed subject line to match discussion... added other key X3D
> implementers.)
>
> Thanks for the description of your github mirroring plans Michalis.
>
> No need for propagating 'legacy' tree, that is a safety net for old work.
>
> *However* you can still color me "puzzled" why you are motivated to put
> effort into this mirroring.
>
> For starters, here are most obvious downsides:
> a. what benefits occur?
> b. original authoritative sources remain elsewhere; how to synchronize
> updates?
> c. similarly how to reconcile conflicts between archives?
> d. what happens to years of version-control change history when you copy?
> e. there are multiple projects with a lot of build scripts that each have
> multiple workflows, now what?
> f. what are identified problems with current workflow that such
> version-control mirroring might fix?
>
> Meanwhile SourceForge (where these code and example archives reside)
> support includes git.  Not sure, perhaps even alignable with subversion?
> - https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/documentation/Git
> - https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/documentation/SVN%20Overview
>
> I certainly don't want to inhibit growing activity but it looks like it
> will make things more difficult for us to keep aligned, and possibly much
> more time needed for me to keep our X3D workflow stable.  Ouch ouch.
>
> Finally am not seeing how any of this accelerates our collective progress
> towards X3D v4.0.  Again Ouch.
>
> Also am not opposed to the notion of forking whatsoever.  All of these
> assets are indeed Open Source.  The preceding questions emerge immediately
> following a fork.
>
> And so, am happy to learn more about what you think.  Truly.
>
> *Meanwhile* am wondering if other activity will have better impact.  Am
> hoping to combine efforts, not split them.
>
> For example, what if we:
>
> g. Updated our X3D Node Inventory Comparison support spreadsheet to show
> everyone's latest greatest:
>
> ====================================================================================================
>      X3D Node Inventory Comparison (.pdf) shows implementation coverage of
> the X3D Abstract Specification:
>      * Validation using X3D Schema, X3D DOCTYPE, and X3D Schematron;
>      * X3D Tooltips and VRML97 node sets; plus
>      * Selected open-source implementations: X3D-Edit, X3DOM, X_ITE,
> view3dscene (Castle Game Engine), Xj3D.
>     http://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.xlsx
>     http://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dNodeInventoryComparison.pdf
>
> Latest version attached.  This hasn't been updated since last December, so
> a refresh is due.
>
> ====================================================================================================
>
> h. Share/compare open-source code as appropriate to get all major browsers
> supporting X3D Interchange and Interactive Profiles.
> i. Continue prioritization of all major browsers to finally achieve X3D
> Immersive Profile.
> j. Enter new year with active collaborations in place to accelerate X3D
> v4.0 implementations.
>
> In other words: we have some real opportunities for shared mutual progress
> in our respective software-development efforts.
>
> Hope this helps. Please let me (and everyone of course) know what you
> think.  Thanks for considering future possibilities.
>
> v/r Don
>
>
> On 10/19/2018 11:25 AM, Michalis Kamburelis wrote:
> > Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:>> Updates
> including today's discussion attached.>
> > Below, some additional information about what I want to do on GitHub,
> > and about my "water + mirrors in X3D" demo:
> >
> >> - Michalis will look at possibility making a mirror of our sourceforge
> infrastructure on Github.
> >
> > Yes. I will create a mirror of the repository
> > https://sourceforge.net/p/x3d/code/HEAD/tree/ , with complete history
> > and contents. (Only the subdirectory "www.web3d.org" there, without
> > the "legacy" subdirectory? Or everything? Your choice.)
> >
> > Every commit will be synchronized automatically (unidirectional
> > synchronization, SourceForge -> GitHub).
> >
> >> - If that looks worthwhile, creating a new open account for X3D usage
> there should be free.
> >
> > It would be an "organization", not an "account", to be precise. Like
> > an organization "web3d-public". So you would have a repository like
> > https://github.com/web3d-public/web3d/ (with contents synchronized
> > from www.web3d.org SVN repoo on SourceForge).
> >
> > In the first approach (without a new organization) we will simply have
> > https://github.com/michaliskambi/web3d/ , because
> > https://github.com/michaliskambi/ is my account on GitHub.
> >
> >> Suggested additions to X3D specification:
> >> ========================================================
> >> ========================================================
> >> https://castle-engine.io/x3d_extensions_mirror_plane.php
> >> add RenderedTexture, ViewpointMirror and
> TextureCoordinateGenerator.mode = MIRROR-PLANE
> >
> > Notes:
> >
> > - "RenderedTexture" node is already considered for inclusion in X3D
> > 4.0, and that's good :) See
> > http://www.web3d.org/wiki/index.php/X3D_version_4.0_Development .
> >
> >      "RenderedTexture" is implemented by many X3D browsers, and has
> > many user-cases.
> >      - CGE:
> https://castle-engine.io/x3d_implementation_texturing_extensions.php#section_ext_rendered_texture
> > ,
> >      - InstantReality:
> > http://doc.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/RenderedTexture/
> > ,
> >      - Xj3D: http://xj3d.org/extensions/render_texture.html ,
> >      - X3DOM:
> https://doc.x3dom.org/author/Texturing/RenderedTexture.html .
> >
> > - The remaining features ("ViewpointMirror" and
> > TextureCoordinateGenerator.mode = "MIRROR-PLANE") should probably wait
> > until more X3D browsers decide to implement them. I welcome opinions
> > from other browser implementors :) The description is on
> > https://castle-engine.io/x3d_extensions_mirror_plane.php .
> >
> >> Discussion questions - totally helpful!
> >> a. How might this capability modify the X3Dv4 specifications?
> >> b. How is it different from Environmental Texture Component and
> Texturing Component?
> >
> > Using this technique to create mirrors is very similar to using
> > GeneratedCubeMapTexture . In fact, my docs
> > https://castle-engine.io/x3d_extensions_mirror_plane.php refer to
> > GeneratedCubeMapTexture . The way of thinking (for the X3D authors)
> > should be:
> >
> > - Is this a (mostly) flat object? Like a mirror in your bathroom, or a
> > water surface (with small waves). Then use this approach, with 2D
> > RenderedTexture and ViewpointMirror. It will result in better quality
> > and speed.
> >
> > - Is this not a flat object? Like a very shiny teapot, sphere,
> > cylinder etc. Then use GeneratedCubeMapTexture , which is using a
> > cubemap, which is basically 6x 2D textures.
> >
> >> c. How implementable is it by other players? Mirrors considered
> straightforward.
> >
> > If you can implement RenderedTexture, then the rest is easy :)
> >
> > In fact, look at how X3DOM does it in JavaScript:
> > https://doc.x3dom.org/tutorials/lighting/mirror/index.html .
> >
> >> d. Is shader support necessary?  Shader capabilities are internally
> necessary for all modern X3D players.
> >> e. Might these techniques relate to inclusion of shadows?  Not really,
> separately defined and implemented.
> >> f. If ViewpointMirror node only appears within RenderedTexture, might
> it be incorporated
> >> g. Are prismatic effects possible and relevant in this context?
> >
> > The X3D extensions proposed above focus on making mirrors.
> >
> > More effects, like water waves or caustics, can be added using shaders
> > (ComposedShader, or Castle Game Engine "compositing shaders"
> > https://castle-engine.io/compositing_shaders.php extensions). I did
> > not yet think about expressing them using X3D (without explicit shader
> > code). If you'd like to see water with caustics, see at
> > https://github.com/castle-engine/demo-models/, subdirectory
> > water/caustics/ :) You can open it with view3dscene from snapshots,
> > http://michalis.ii.uni.wroc.pl/view3dscene-snapshots/ .
> >
> >> h. Might these techniques relate to proposed Projective Texture Mapping
> (PTM) capabilities?  Possibly...
> >>
> >> TODO where is PTM linked?  Need to get this material exposed.
> >>
> >
> > Google finds this :
> >
> http://www.web3d.org/sites/default/files/presentations/Updates%20on%20Projective%20Texture%20Mapping/%285%29ProjectiveTexturemappingDoc%28kwanhee%29.pdf
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Michalis
> >
>
>
> all the best, Don
> --
> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA   +1.831.656.2149
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
> _______________________________________________
> x3d mailing list
> x3d at web3d.org
> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d_web3d.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/attachments/20181023/392ea6c8/attachment.html>