[x3d-public] [x3d] X3D Working Group minutes 16 AUG 2019:PointProperties/PointSet, IIIF 3D, glTF, ISO preps
Joseph D Williams
joedwil at earthlink.net
Fri Aug 16 19:49:25 PDT 2019
➢ glTfX3dFeaturesComparison.pdf
The only item I disagree with is:
Morph targets No
I think the hanimDisplacer does ‘morph’ shape or part of a shape by giving the start and end xyz relative displacements of controlled vertices.
When the number of points is allowed to remain the same, then this node uses the same data as would be expected as a shape is animated. I might expect there could be gltf that contains the actual xyz values for begin and end and maybe all inbetweens, rather than the relative displacements, but that would be structured more like a coordinateinterpolator.
Thanks and Best,
Joe
From: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 10:34 AM
To: X3D Graphics public mailing list
Cc: X3D Graphics Working Group
Subject: [x3d] X3D Working Group minutes 16 AUG 2019:PointProperties/PointSet, IIIF 3D, glTF, ISO preps
Attendees: Anita Havele, Vince Marchetti, Nicholas Polys, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman.
Last-minute regrets/reschedule: Michalis Kamburelis.
Last week's minutes:
[x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 9 AUG 2019
http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2019-August/011188.html
====================================================
1. *Topics*
We are looking to discuss the following items today:
- PointProperties signature, Mantis 1252
http://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1252
- PointSet containing Normal node
- Upcoming ISO Standards Committee (SC) 24 meeting in Takamatsu Japan
-- specification update strategies
-- HAnim 2 additional parts for human organs
Deferred to next Wednesday 21 AUG, 08-1000 pacific:
Michalis Kamburelis, glTF, Physically Based Rendering (PBR) and Advanced Lighting Model.
[x3d-public] My proposal of changes to X3D to enable PBR and other material improvements
http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2019-May/010864.html
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2. *IIIF 3D Community Group*
Vince Marchetti attended a meeting of IIIF 3D Community Group
https://iiif.io/community/groups/3d
"A IIIF 3D community group provides an opportunity for institutions interested in interoperability to coordinate strategies and facilitate conversations about open standards that support 3D use cases. Many of the desired operations and interactions with 3D data are similar to the 2D and A/V use cases of IIIF for sharing images and annotation, and organizations are increasingly looking to integrate exhibits, displays, and comparisons of 3D data with other file types.
We welcome participation in the IIIF 3D community group by anyone interested in exploring the prospects and promise of 3D data interoperability on the web."
Vince's reactions and take-aways can be found at
[heritage] Teleconference with IIIF 3D Community Group
http://web3d.org/mailman/private/heritage_web3d.org/2019-August/000098.html
As practitioners with a special focus on heritage issues, he thinks they might be natural partners and a community who can use X3D model publishing capabilities. He is on the agenda for their next meeting 12 SEP to describe our many related activities.
----
3. *PointProperties signature: attenuation*
Mantis 1252
http://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1252
We had an interesting discussion about tradeoffs between backwards compatibility and consistency.
We decided to change the signature of PointProperties attenuation to SFVec3f, matching X3DLightingNode.
Details at comment 2460
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1252#c2460
As a result the prose needs to be adjusted a bit. At that point Dick and I will enter in draft X3Dv4 spec, hopefully next Wednesday on our weekly specification editors call.
----
4. *PointSet signature: Normal*
Useful discussion of issues. Have added to Mantis. Nicholas has offered to lead on this one, VT has relevant work in progress.
0001261: PointSet field for Normal node
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1261
Description
Document use cases and then decide whether to include Normal node as a contained node of PointSet (similar to FaceSet and related nodes).
Additional Information
- Many scanners provide normal information when scanning points.
- Mesh construction algorithms sometimes utilize normal information.
- Normal information can be useful as part of X3D data structure.
- Meshlab can include normal information in outputs (perhaps inputs)
- A point set might be used to derive a mesh, or come from a mesh, so a scene should be able to include this information in a model if it is appropriate.
Need to get clear on terminology, don't want to confound "angle of incidence" or related terms that are from the perspective of sensor. Normals (perpendicular vectors) are from the perspective of the geometric shape.
Simply applying existing design patterns for X3DNormalNode to PointSet will be most implementable, if possible. The application context may vary somewhat from model to model - we can describe some of that - but hopefully the X3D scene graph representations.
Further information on Normal
* https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/rendering.html#Normals
* https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/rendering.html#Normal
* https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/rendering.html#X3DNormalNode
* https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#Normal
Lots of related information can be found via search, e.g.
https://www.google.com/search?q=meshlab+normals+on+point+clouds
Also needed: test content and 1-2 test scenes for conformance.
----
5. Future issues for scanning:
- whether a Scanning Profile (or 3D Printing and Scanning Profile) is needed, likely oriented towards hardware and use cases. Don will take this for action.
- whether anything needs to be said about input/output operations.
----
6. *glTF X3D Features Comparison*
* Attachment [3]: glTF X3D Features Comparison (3 NOV 2017)
https://www.web3d.org/sites/default/files/page/X3D%20Version%204%20Strategy/glTfX3dFeaturesComparison.pdf
source at
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12ebxqfQoFPuNhaz8wZkNE6G-w_bqt98iy6p5F9IazVM/edit#gid=0
* IEEE 3D Body Processing Group comparison chart has additional formats. Vince is tracking that activity.
- Are these entries still up to date? glTF has continued to evolve since November 2017.
- We need to add a column for X3Dv4.
We agreed to work towards an update to our table for expected X3Dv4 support over the next month. This is also timely as we review our glTF and Physically Based Rendering (PBR) plans with Dr. Kamburelis.
----
7. *ISO SC24 meeting*
Dick and Don are carrying forward much progress to report to the upcoming ISO Standards Committee (SC) 24 meeting in Takamatsu Japan.
-- specification update strategies
-- HAnim 2 additional parts for human organs
Several items are not being shared satisfactorily to enable Web3D Consortium activity:
- Mixed Augmented Reality (MAR) progress is not yet workable.
- Software for C, C++, C# bindings shared as open source or other work can't continue.
There is a LOT of development work going by the Web3D Korea Chapter - happily - but we want to ensure that requirements are well stated too.
We will express our deep appreciation, with correspondingly deep motivation to do better. The deadlines for X3Dv4 are especially relevant as both opportunity and forcing function.
----
8. *Real Soon Now*
Release announcement imminent: coordinated refinements to X3D Unified Object Model (X3DUOM) with corresponding updates to
- X3D XML Schema
- X3D Python Language Binding
- X3D Ontology
- X3DJSAIL: X3D Java Scene Access Interface Library and Java 8/Java 12 testing
- X3D Tooltips
----
9. *Upcoming Topics for X3D Group*
Lots of interesting work planned for this month. Participation welcome.
In addition to these frequent minutes, you can track "big picture" and "details" for X3Dv4 at
X3Dv4 Implementations
https://www.web3d.org/x3dv4-implementations
Web3D.org > MEMBERS > CONTENT > MANTIS ISSUE TRACKER
https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view_all_bug_page.php
Unless otherwise stated, teleconferences are 1-2 hours duration starting at 0800 pacific.
a. 19 AUG Monday: X3D Semantic Web Working Group
b. 21 AUG Wednesday: Michalis Kamburelis, glTF, Physically Based Rendering (PBR) and Advanced Lighting Model.
c. 21 AUG Wednesday 16-1700: X3Dv4 specification editor review for github spec and mantis resolution.
d. 22 AUG Thursday: Design Printing Scanning Working Group, PointProperties and PointSet/Normal refinements.
Unless otherwise announced, we will skip X3D Working Group meetings for the next two Fridays.
e. Next X3D meeting in 3 weeks, 6 SEP 2019.
September plans:
- ISO update report.
- Nicholas Polys and Ander Arbelaiz, spec prose for volume component extensions (ImageAtlas and MPR).
- Andreas Plesch, Custom elements in HTML5 and X3D prefixes.
- Annotations Component next steps. Suggest consider a possible reset: hold on current spec draft, confirm requirements/goals, see what is possible with HTML5+X3D.
- newly proposed User Experience (UX) Working Group: formative discussions on goals have begun, when those individuals are ready with a draft UX Working Group Charter please present summary to X3D Working Group for cooperative development.
Expect plenty of email traffic and progress in the coming weeks.
Review confirmation by group: all information here is reviewed as satisfactory for public release.
----
I never cease to be impressed at the depth of knowledge and breadth of activity that is ongoing. What a learning opportunity we all share.
Have fun with X3D! 8)
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
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