[x3d-public] Data logging support in X3Dv4
Leonard Daly
Leonard.Daly at realism.com
Mon Oct 28 06:49:25 PDT 2019
Note that in HTML a scene author cannot rely on any imposed limit. The
user can always override that value either in the X3D by changing it
after arrival in the browser but before the parser deals with it OR
changing the stored limit while the scene is running.
Leonard Daly
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 8:14 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
> <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the great example - impressive!
>
> Getting explicit to match your description, it looks like the key
> statement is
>
> <X3D id="x3d" showLog="true" logLevel='5' width="800px"
> height="600px">
>
>
> Yes, that is the interface in the example, attributes to the X3D root.
>
> This probably needs to stay abstract in the abstract spec.
>
> Browser properties could be a fitting abstract place.
>
> Not sure how other than XML encodings would store such a setting.
>
>
> Adding it to X3D root would seem to work for X3D applications in a
> non-HTML context as well. Also makes it easy for any author, and
> possible for any model (not requiring Script node). Thus meets
> goal of easy repeatability too.
>
> Is this approach (attributes on X3D root) acceptable with
> everyone, including FreeWrl view3dscene and other standalone
> application environments?
>
>
> The spec. also mentions config files for browser properties, as an
> example.
>
>
> If so, wondering if we are ready to tackle other attributes on X3D
> element (such as id width height url)?
>
> Once we agree on basic approach, we should also discuss whether
> scoping of logging is possible. Can it be turned off for parts of
> scene graph, does it affect internals within Inline and
> ProtoInstance, etc.
>
>
> In my view, it should be simple and not (very) configurable. So I
> would suggest logging any ROUTE in child name scopes, in Inlines and
> also in ProtoInstances. The logging output could include a name scope id.
>
> This brings up control of logging by a scene author. Would an
> additional maxLogLevel root property be required ? Maybe not.
>
> I am thinking that there would be two browser properties,
> currentLogLevel (or just logLevel) and maxLogLevel. Both are set
> initially to the logLevel value provided by the scene.
>
> currentLogLevel can then be modified by a sai browser service. This
> could be done from a GUI, or from a script. But it is not allowed to
> become higher than maxLogLevel.
>
> In order to respect logging restrictions, eg. logLevels, in Inlines,
> maxLogLevel could be per name scope, or more simply just be lowered in
> general by restricted Inlines.
>
> Good topic for issue review on X3D Working Group call Friday
> morning. Participating in the discussion and email feedback are
> both welcome.
>
>
> I will try to come up with more specifics for spec. purposes.
>
> -Andreas
>
>
> v/r Don
>
>
> On 10/20/2019 3:18 PM, Andreas Plesch wrote:
> > Here is an example implementation using a new attribute
> 'logLevel' to
> > the X3D element, working as a browser property interface>
> >
> https://raw.githack.com/andreasplesch/x3dom/dcde5c67281c1a3dae6b20b1944065d24d369711/test/functional/widgetPlaneSensor.html
> >
> > logLevels 5 and higher turn on event logging.
> >
> > [For x3dom it may make sense to reserve lower levels for system
> level
> > logging: exceptions, errors, warnings, information]
> >
> > The format here is FROM node type, node def name (or null), field
> > name, field value
> >
> > Perhaps it suffices to just focus on the ROUTE level logging since
> > these events are usually the only one of interest.
> >
> > The 'trace' attribute in x_ite_dom has a similar effect (except not
> > restricted to ROUTEd events).
> >
> > So two implementations of such a logging feature may not be out
> of reach.
> >
> > -Andreas
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 3:58 PM Andreas Plesch
> <andreasplesch at gmail.com <mailto:andreasplesch at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 2:04 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
> >> <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the great analysis Andreas.
> >>>
> >>> Sorry for mystery assignment... we do need someone to take
> charge of this one. Can defer to someone else if you prefer.
> >>>
> >>> There is much to be said for Logger staying directly aligned
> with Browser services. But, if that is where we leave it, am
> expecting that logging will be rarely used because use of Browser
> services requires a Script node and adaptation code - tedious and
> inconsistent. Much better for encouraging use is to also have a
> consistently defined Logger node that any author can configure or
> ROUTE to, in any scene, for consistent testing and conformance/QA.
> >>
> >> I would envision logging to be a browser feature which can be
> set in
> >> the browser interface, or as a PARAM for html as other browser
> >> properties:
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/networking.html#BrowserProperties.
> >> x3dom uses an Environment node to set various Browser options. It
> >> would be very easy to use. The point is that it is easier to
> use than
> >> a Logger node because it would not require modifying the content of
> >> the scene.
> >>
> >> The browser option would be make a Logger node unnecessary. So the
> >> spec. would not have to define a Logger node.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Quote: "when you come to the fork in the road, take it" - Yogi
> Berra
> >>>
> >>> Hmmm, I guess we need to put such a Logger node in Core
> profile for full generality and usefulness.
> >>>
> >>> Are you saying that logLevel is for automatic logging of all
> events, rather than explicitly ROUTEd input values? Interesting
> possibility... if so, once again we might achieve best of both
> worlds by having one logLevel setting be for ROUTEd input values
> only. That would seem to give authors both simple flexibility and
> fine-grained control.
> >>
> >> Yes. Only ROUTEd events was one of the LogLevels I had listed
> (the first one).
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Am willing to create a Prototype that at least creates a
> Script node console log illustrating proper text outputs. (File
> saving not allowed in Script node sandbox.)
> >>
> >> That would be useful in any case.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Looks like the variations of logging support desired for a
> given model can all be expressed in the Logger node itself,
> meaning that we wouldn't have to modify any X3D/head/Scene
> parameters. Simple is good.
> >>
> >> Yes, but it is even simpler to not have to have a Logger node. It
> >> would be just a matter of switching on Logging in the browser. No
> >> scripting required.
> >>
> >> Best, -Andreas
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I agree that we seem to be getting closer on this one.
> >>>
> >>> On 10/18/2019 12:08 PM, Andreas Plesch wrote:
> >>>> I received a mystery email from the Mantis tracker about being
> >>>> assigned a Logger entry. The forwarded Mantis summary seems
> pretty
> >>>> comprehensive. It focuses on a Logger node.
> >>>>
> >>>> Another way to think about logging of events is as a browser
> feature
> >>>> which can be enabled, parallel to a debugger. This is how I would
> >>>> first think about logging. As a system feature, not as a
> scene content
> >>>> feature. It seems counterproductive to have to modify/augment
> a scene
> >>>> with extra nodes, scripts and routes to enable logging.
> >>>>
> >>>> So my suggestions would be to turn this into a Browser
> Property or
> >>>> Browser Option. Scene's could hint with a SAI script what
> level of
> >>>> logging they allow, expecting the browser to respect the
> hint. Note
> >>>> that a Logger node would not prevent browsers from unauthorized
> >>>> logging if a browser really wanted to.
> >>>>
> >>>> Is the main security concern that with logging an otherwise
> protected
> >>>> scene (perhaps by encryption) would expose its data
> (geometry, raw
> >>>> imagery) ?
> >>>>
> >>>> Enabled logging would just log output events by nodes selected by
> >>>> loglevel, always to the console (which may be recorded in a file
> >>>> anyways), in a standard format as outlined in the Mantis summary.
> >>>> Filtering can be applied by other tools. There are a lot of
> events
> >>>> zipping around.
> >>>>
> >>>> loglevels could be combinations of:
> >>>> - ROUTES: only events which go through routes
> >>>> - Sensors: events generated by any Sensor
> >>>> - Scripts: events generated by Scripts
> >>>> - Interpolators/Sequencers: events generated by those
> >>>> - component: events generated by all nodes defined in a
> component ("Networking")
> >>>> - all: deluge from all nodes
> >>>> - none: no logging, default
> >>>>
> >>>> I suppose one way to think about this as a browser feature
> is to have
> >>>> implicit Logger nodes and routes from all the nodes selected by
> >>>> loglevels. The advantage from a spec. perspective that the
> mechanism
> >>>> does not have to be explicitly prescribed, only the
> functionality.
> >>>>
> >>>> So I think it boils down to:
> >>>>
> >>>> a) What is the standard format of the logging output ?
> Perhaps easy to define.
> >>>>
> >>>> b) What is logged ? output events of some or all nodes.
> >>>>
> >>>> c) The browser service specification:
> >>>>
> >>>> - it may be possible to piggy back on setBrowserOption which
> uses this
> >>>> table:
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/networking.html#t-BrowserProperties
> >>>> :
> >>>> add a property:
> >>>> Name: LogLevel
> >>>> Description: allow logging of events to console
> >>>> Range: see above
> >>>> Default: None
> >>>>
> >>>> And perhaps a header (meta?) entry 'maxLogLevel' in the Scene
> to limit
> >>>> logging, by a Scene author:
> >>>>
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/core.html#HeaderStatement.
> >>>> Or allow resetting of the Browser Option by the Scene with an
> >>>> initialize script.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think once a more precise spec. language is provided, multiple
> >>>> browser implementation could be quickly had.
> >>>>
> >>>> Any feedback welcome.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Andreas
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 10:27 PM Andreas Plesch
> <andreasplesch at gmail.com <mailto:andreasplesch at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> x_ite_dom can log all out events by adding a 'trace'
> attribute to the x3dcanvas element.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> x3dom does not have built-in logging . Instead, all web
> browsers have powerful debuggers which can be used to follow the
> event flow (and all internals). Chrome even lets you modify code
> and then continue, or restart.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This also applies to x_ite.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andreas
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---on the phone---
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 6:40 PM <x3d-public-request at web3d.org
> <mailto:x3d-public-request at web3d.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Send x3d-public mailing list submissions to
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> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> specific
> >>>>>> than "Re: Contents of x3d-public digest..."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Today's Topics:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1. Re: Data logging support in X3Dv4 (Brutzman, Donald
> (Don) (CIV))
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Message: 1
> >>>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:31:25 +0000
> >>>>>> From: "Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)" <brutzman at nps.edu
> <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>>
> >>>>>> To: Michalis Kamburelis <michalis.kambi at gmail.com
> <mailto:michalis.kambi at gmail.com>>
> >>>>>> Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org
> <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>, Feng Liu
> >>>>>> <LIU_F at mercer.edu <mailto:LIU_F at mercer.edu>>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Data logging support in X3Dv4
> >>>>>> Message-ID: <2f511aa0-9a21-1fc6-7b36-3f43114186b1 at nps.edu
> <mailto:2f511aa0-9a21-1fc6-7b36-3f43114186b1 at nps.edu>>
> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thank you very much for this detailed information Michalis.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have created Mantis issue 1263 to track this.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> * https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1263
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Who would like to take charge of the issue: Next steps
> include:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - reconciling implementations X3DOM, Castle Game Engine and
> adding others (X_ITE, FreeWrl, etc.),
> >>>>>> - one or two example scenes (with outputs) to confirm
> conformance,
> >>>>>> - draft specification prose, including security considerations.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We can all assist via the mailing list. Having someone in
> charge will help.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 10/14/2019 11:58 PM, Michalis Kamburelis wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Instant Reality and Castle Game Engine implement a
> "Logger" node, that
> >>>>>>> seems in line with your thinking :) It was indeed quite
> useful in some
> >>>>>>> cases when I wasn't sure what/when events are generated by
> something.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> See:
> >>>>>>> -
> https://doc.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/Logger/ ( note
> >>>>>>> that the CSS of Instant Reality docs seems broken for me
> now, but the
> >>>>>>> content is readable anyway)
> >>>>>>> -
> https://castle-engine.io/x3d_extensions.php#section_ext_logger (
> >>>>>>> it's a long page, look at section about "Logger" )
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The principle is simple: route *anything* to Logger's
> "write" field to
> >>>>>>> output it to browser-specific log mechanism. A special type is
> >>>>>>> invented here to allow an input event to receive any X3D
> field type:
> >>>>>>> XFAny .
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would say that adding it to X3D spec may be reasonable
> (but without
> >>>>>>> the "logFile" field), in the "Event Utilities" component --
> >>>>>>> implementing this node is rather easy, and the usefulness
> is real.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Example in classic encoding:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ```
> >>>>>>> DEF MyLogger Logger {
> >>>>>>> level 3
> >>>>>>> }
> >>>>>>> DEF MyKeySensor KeySensor { }
> >>>>>>> ROUTE MyKeySensor.keyPress TO MyLogger.write
> >>>>>>> ```
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Complete example that works in view3dscene:
> >>>>>>>
> https://github.com/castle-engine/demo-models/blob/master/x3d/castle_extensions/logger.x3dv
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>> Michalis
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> pon., 14 pa? 2019 o 19:24 Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
> >>>>>>> <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>> napisa?(a):
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> [We explored several points such as this during today's
> Web3DUX User Experience teleconference.]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Data logging is a common prerequisite for many types of
> measurement and assessment.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Conventions for logging via HTML and also directly via
> X3D need to be considered. For example, numerous X3D sensor nodes
> include the ability to generate output events triggered by user
> navigation and interaction. Common data formatting that
> identifies system parameters, event source, timestamp and data
> streams for a given scene can facilitate analysis. Defining and
> adding a logging function to the X3D Browser object specification
> can enable secure recording of information.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Question: do others think that logging is important
> also? Am thinking that having such a capability is important for
> measurable improvements in X3Dv4.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> all the best, Don
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
> >>>>>>>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000
> USA +1.831.656.2149
> >>>>>>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
> >>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
> >>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> all the best, Don
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
> >>>>>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
> >>>>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> End of x3d-public Digest, Vol 127, Issue 27
> >>>>>> *******************************************
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> all the best, Don
> >>> --
> >>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
> >>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
> >>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Andreas Plesch
> >> Waltham, MA 02453
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> all the best, Don
> --
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x3d-public mailing list
> x3d-public at web3d.org
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--
*Leonard Daly*
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Past Chair
President, Daly Realism - /Creating the Future/
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