[x3d-public] Visualizing Math in X3D

John Carlson yottzumm at gmail.com
Tue Jun 9 11:01:31 PDT 2020


Yeah, painful.

John

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 12:56 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, something with GeoElevationGrid might solve my puzzle.   I am not
> sure I want to see Earth transformed in that way,  but perhaps I could do
> molten silicon (glass) cooling.
>
> Thanks for the tip!   I do not currently know the multiplier on my
> equation to get something visible.
>
> John
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 10:13 AM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> So, mainly, for vizualization and interaction geometry you are going to
>> finally use xyz coordinates in a 3D linear coordinate system to make a
>> triangle that you can see and interact with. Unless there is a new magic
>> then it boils down to that. It glows or reflects or refracts depending upon
>> what you tell it to do with the light you shine on it. It can respond to
>> external or internal events as you choose. So far, you can compute however
>> you can but to viz you seem to need at least one and typically in groups of
>> 3 ccw to make a viz. So that is a pattern, compute bunches of stuff and
>> produce interactive xyz viz for the feelings and wisdom then update the
>> compute stuff, and so on.
>>
>>
>>
>> Use the idea of a animating one of more xyz of a mesh independently of
>> other xyz in the mesh.  The mesh needs to be able to hang together given
>> what you wish to do. If each displacement is fairly predicable and linear
>> weighting then you can use the idea of a 3D weighted displacement vector
>> applied independently to each of your points of interest. Each vector can
>> be pointed where you wish and scaled 0 to full effect (all changeable at
>> your will) to act upon the chosen points of your chosen mesh in the
>> coordinate system of the mesh.
>>
>>
>>
>>    - spherical coordinates
>>
>>
>>
>> I remember info about that in GeoSpatial
>>
>> This sort of specialized Displacer is included in hanim browsers mainly
>> to simplify and augment subtle mesh animation along with others styles,
>> like using weighted joint rotations and coordinate interpolators. Basically
>> if you know or have access to the current coordinates of a point and you
>> want to move it in a controlled way according to the 3D displacement vector
>> produced by the node, while maintaining the mesh, then I think we can
>> figure out how use this clever device. to fabricate a controllable 3D
>> displacement vector to do the job.
>>
>>
>>
>> As an Enthusiast,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Monday, June 8, 2020 8:38 PM
>> *To: *Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> *Cc: *Humanoid Animation (H-Anim) Working Group <h-anim at web3d.org>; X3D
>> Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] Visualizing Math in X3D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I appreciate your enthusiasm for displaced.   How do I displace r in
>> spherical coordinates?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 7:52 PM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> See, you give it a displacement vector from initial or, if other point
>> animations in the same frame then the location set by prior animation
>> process such as other Displacers or joint rotation driven mesh deformation,
>> according to the weight input. At least that’s the way I heard it. More in
>> the standard.
>>
>>
>>
>> You might think this might be a simple tool like first you get a shape as
>> reference then another shape as target, then just give those start and stop
>> frames to the interpolator and let it sort out the points between as you
>> command it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just like that name says, you name some vertices in the target geometery
>> and give it a final displacement from wherever it was to how far you tell
>> it to be from where it got started. The only problem is, the node is simple
>> and so it is only linear overall, but you can drive 0 to 1 however you wish.
>>
>> Also, you can chain a few to get some special more delicate
>> displacements.
>>
>> Example:
>>
>> Your point 527 of the target geometry (in the order of appearance in the
>> user code) starts at 0 1.77 0 and over some cycle you want to move it to 0
>> 1.92 0 then the displacer value for max movement is 0 0.15 0.
>>
>> initial   0 1.77 0
>>
>> displacer 0 0.15 0
>>
>> result    0 1.92 0
>>
>> Simple but very effective if you have a plan for what you wish to do
>> given some input.
>>
>>
>>
>> <Displacer DEF='tipTest'
>>
>> coordIndex='527' displacements='0 0.15 0' weight='0'/>
>>
>> weight driven by
>>
>> <ScalarInterpolator DEF='tipTest'
>>
>> key='0 0.5 1' keyValue='0 0.3 1'/>
>>
>>
>>
>> If you have a deformable mesh, then all is good. But wait, you only get
>> that by name in x3d hanim.
>>
>> Shouldn’t there be some in basic x3d so you don’t have to put your code n
>> the Humanoid?
>>
>>
>>
>> So, maybe that is why our x3d hanim Displacer is so special and not
>> called a ‘morpher’ doing one set of coordinates to another, but instead,
>> where, relative to what it got, what do at you want to happen to that
>> vertex when this Displacer gives it the drive.
>>
>>
>>
>> Isn’t that also why all the ‘simple’ morphers  like between frames and
>> others are hidden in plain sight in the different styles of x3d
>> interpolators? Each of their stories should be told, also.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> *Sent: *Monday, June 8, 2020 1:50 PM
>> *To: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] Visualizing Math in X3D
>>
>>
>>
>>    - Limited to [0,1]?  I’ll check the docs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, that is the scale input. From the initial position, theDisplacer
>> moves the specified vertex according to the 100 percent displacement set in
>> the values.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Sunday, June 7, 2020 1:14 PM
>> *To: *Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> *Cc: *X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] Visualizing Math in X3D
>>
>>
>>
>> Limited to [0,1]?  I’ll check the docs.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 3:10 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Not trying to change the number of points yet. Thanks for the info.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 7:56 AM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ·        What people don’t understand is I’m moving every vertex in the
>> mesh
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey John, vrml and x3d hid that one in the hanim Displacer node.
>>
>> If you can’t do a morph you need with that, please tell. Just don’t try
>> to change the number of points.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Sunday, June 7, 2020 12:55 AM
>> *To: *X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *[x3d-public] Visualizing Math in X3D
>>
>>
>>
>> Don, I am just trying to make the standard better for visualizing
>> mathematical stuff,   I pretty much majored in mathematical visualization
>> in college.   There’s a lot of stuff in the standard for visualizing
>> physics, both rigid body and particle systems.   Instead of applying math
>> to physics, I am trying to apply physics to math.
>>
>>
>>
>> I realize that visualizing math does not really have a vocal champion in
>> the X3D community, perhaps Andy Yeh is still around.
>>
>>
>>
>> I imagine because Mathematica made great strides in the math community.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mathematica still requires a Pro edition running on the cloud to even
>> attempt my surfaces.   In X3D, they pop right up, even multiple
>> “transparent” animated objects. Yay X3D!
>>
>>
>>
>> PlayCanvas has a *very* slow start up compared to X3D.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would like to continue using X3D over PlayCanvas and others.  The key
>> remains don’t use the network for mesh, positions, or normals, generate
>> them on the web client.   My knowledge of geometry shaders indicates I
>> still need to compute a grid on a sphere, and the geometry shader can
>> enhance that.
>>
>>
>>
>> That is why I am seeking to have the browser generate the mesh for at
>> least one topology, let’s call it a sphere, but it’s the topology of the
>> equation that matters.   I can already position and compute normals of the
>> surfaces.  I could probably compute a mesh as sphere topology in an
>> initialize method if that’s still allowed.  I am not sure about X_ITE.   I
>> do not want to generate coordinates in X3D nodes.   Shaders are fine for
>> that.   I am not sure I can confidently generate a mesh without defects.
>>
>>
>>
>> Low bandwidth (think 4G LTE) is preferred.
>>
>>
>>
>> But you can see my Frustration compared to Mathematica users who just
>> type in a small set of equations.  Not my lucky day.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do not want geometry or perfect math in X3D.   I want a topological
>> 0-hole enclosed surface, subdivided to adequate resolution.
>>
>>
>>
>> I will look further into primitive quality.
>>
>>
>>
>> I will see if my graphics card supports raytracing.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 1:37 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Here’s the best looking version of what I like to do:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://playcanv.as/p/wQgQBgkE/
>>
>>
>>
>> Ideally, I could send a math equation in MathML by putting MathML into
>> the geometry node, and PBR or material like glass or diamond
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 1:22 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Previous subject:  morphing comparison in X3D and glTF:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2017-December/008037.html
>>
>>
>>
>> I would say morphing is doable in X3DOM, but perhaps not other browsers.
>>   The most conformant approach would probably be an IFS where the position
>> and normal are computed in a shader and the mesh is computed in user code,
>> or provided statically.
>>
>>
>>
>> My question becomes,  Why can’t we provide at least provide for common
>> topologies?  1 surface and 0 edges (sphere), 2 surface (cone), 3 surface
>> (cylinder), 1 surface and one hole(torus), and consider a higher number of
>> holes and surfaces.   I think we have a isocahedron at least...but very
>> slow to open.
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems like I should be using blender to create X3D.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 12:33 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What people don’t understand is I’m moving every vertex in the mesh with
>> respect to the mesh.   Kind of like particle physics or morphing would be a
>> better description.   I have example videos.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 11:01 PM J. Scheurich <mufti11 at web.de> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > 1.  User provides a mesh. I have done this before.  It is too slow for
>> > a 100x100 IFS (20000 polygons I think).
>> It depend on your graphics card and driver.
>> For the rasberry PI and some other systems i meshured the performace in
>> 3000 Polygon-Steps
>> (1 NURBS-Object with uv/Tessellation 0)
>>
>> https://wdune.ourproject.org/docs/usage_docs/white_dune_rasberry_pi.odp
>>
>> (in german but page 5 is a readable table).
>> A raspberry PI (shared Memory graphics card) can do 30000 polygons, a
>> Intel HD 3000 shared
>> memory graphics card (this is a common card on older "office"-laptops)
>> can do 33000 polygons.
>> There are very much faster graphic cards on "game laptops"....
>> The fastest graphics card on this list is a very slow (processor)
>> Mac-book....
>>
>> The only systems that are not able to do 20000 polygons are a 8 year old
>> netbook and a
>> ARM chromebook without a 3D driver.
>>
>> so long
>> MUFTI
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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