[x3d-public] [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on 19775-1:X3DArchitecture - V3.0
GPU Group
gpugroup at gmail.com
Sun Jun 14 09:44:26 PDT 2020
Drags - perhaps beside the Pointing Device Sensor notion of a bearing (5
DOF ray) there could be the articulation / notion of a 'bearing drag' -
meaning its not necessarily a 2D device space drag, rather more generically
its more like in ray / bearing space, or (after ray/bearing istersects
sensor geometry) sensor-geometry-space drag.
defining 'drag' in bearing or sensor space abstracts it somewhat from the
messy particulars of specific pointing devices
On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 10:24 AM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> wrote:
> 5. more than one way to generate 2 rays / bearings / 5-DOF (degree of
> freedom) rays:
> - game controller - most have 2 thumb buttons, and so in theory could be
> used as 2 separate rays - like a multitouch device (but I haven't tried it)
> - mouse - press an ALT or other modifier button to alternate between rays
> - (Appendix G arrow keys for ray 2, mouse xy, LMB for ray 1)
> - mouse in one hand, WiiMote wand in other hand
> - etc
> SUMMARY: the SENSORS section is already pretty good at abstracting
> pointing devices to talk about 3D rays/bearings/5DOF pointing. So trying to
> keep the MULTI part general will help adoption and use going forward.
> -Doug
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 10:05 AM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 1. I think the mouse + MultitouchSensor idea was submitted as a SPEC
>> COMMENT or I hereby declare it so.
>> So its no longer my method'- I'll call it the web3d.org mouse +
>> MultiTouchSensor method.
>> 2. I haven't implemented it, but something similar in a more general
>> multitouch emulator that uses a mouse
>> 3. it wouldn't need to be a mouse - any 2D+viewpoint or 3D raycasting /
>> pointing device / bearing device can do this
>> - HMD head mounted display with gyro and viewport center pointer
>> - game console/controller thumbstick
>> - touch device with only one touch allowed
>> - etc
>> 4. how:
>> a) shoot first ray/bearing as an anchor / pin / pivot point and freeze it
>> (the ray) as the first point/drag of the multitouch sensor
>> b) shoot a 2nd ray/bearing and downdrag/downdrag/drag it as the 2nd point
>> of the multi-touch
>> c) after dragging to scale and rotate, release the 2nd downdrag leaving
>> the first
>> d) unfreeze the first ray/drag
>> d) drag the first if desired to adjust translation
>> e) release the first drag
>> f) repeat / iterate as needed
>>
>> down-drag - primary pointing device (2D+viewpoint or 3D) with primary
>> trigger on / pressed / activated and motion (vs clicking)
>> shoot - point pointing device, and active trigger
>>
>> -Doug Sanden
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 9:45 AM Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for pointing at that Joe, very important and often overlooked.
>>> Agreed that it describes how our device-neutral definitions actually work,
>>> and that it could be very helpful to extend.
>>>
>>> Doug, can you describe how your "MultiTouch using a Mouse" works?
>>>
>>> Given that, Dick and I can accept/adapt/rephrase the wording for Annex G
>>> to define suggested practices for "MultiTouch using a Single Pointing
>>> Device".
>>>
>>> On 6/14/2020 8:36 AM, Joseph D Williams wrote:
>>> > For example:
>>> >
>>> > *WALK: forward/backward/left/right*
>>> >
>>> > *FLY: forward/backward/left/right*
>>> >
>>> > *EXAMINE: orbit up/down/left/right around center of rotation*
>>> >
>>> > * with camera pointed at center of rotation*
>>> >
>>> > **
>>> >
>>> > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>>> Windows 10
>>> >
>>> > *From: *Joseph D Williams <mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>> > *Sent: *Sunday, June 14, 2020 8:31 AM
>>> > *To: *GPU Group <mailto:gpugroup at gmail.com>; X3D Graphics public
>>> mailing list <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>> > *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on
>>> 19775-1:X3DArchitecture - V3.0
>>> >
>>> > * Q. And could/should named navigation modes/types be
>>> >
>>> > How about some more work on:
>>> >
>>> > Extensible 3D (X3D) Part 1: Architecture and base components
>>> >
>>> > Annex G Recommended navigation behaviours
>>> >
>>> > (informative)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/behaviours.html
>>> >
>>> > Several reasons the annex was informative at that time, or even
>>> attempted.
>>> >
>>> > Maybe more Is understood now, and this offers some guidance from some
>>> point in time.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> >
>>> > Joe
>>> >
>>> > *From: *GPU Group <mailto:gpugroup at gmail.com>
>>> > *Sent: *Sunday, June 14, 2020 6:28 AM
>>> > *To: *X3D Graphics public mailing list <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>> > *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on
>>> 19775-1: X3DArchitecture - V3.0
>>> >
>>> > Forwarding some comments on other channels
>>> >
>>> > Q. should specs > NavigationInfo attempt to abstract input / pointing
>>> device terminology
>>> >
>>> > - so gyros, game controllers/pads, touch screens, 3D pointing devices
>>> ?, HMD / AR gyro/view-center - can all be mapped more generically:
>>> >
>>> > Instead of mouse xy, it would be 'primaryXY channel' or 'primary
>>> 2D pointing device'
>>> >
>>> > Q. And could/should named navigation modes/types be specified in terms
>>> of the order and transform element being mapped to:
>>> >
>>> > WALK: yaw and Z are applied to last yaw-z pose, then pitch-roll applied
>>> >
>>> > FREEFLY: yaw,z,pitch,roll are applied in any order
>>> >
>>> > Perhaps something in a table format?
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> >
>>> > Doug Sanden
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 12:15 PM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:gpugroup at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > "have your ray loop forget about ID=2"
>>> >
>>> > One notable difference between a touch device and a mouse: a mouse
>>> has an up-drag. A touch doesn't.
>>> >
>>> > - that makes no difference to MultiTouch/MultiDragSensor, which
>>> only works with down-drags.
>>> >
>>> > Where you see the difference: isOver, and navigation modes that
>>> assume updrag is available - like proposed GAME mode.
>>> >
>>> > And what you do when a button / touch is 'released':
>>> >
>>> > - updrag-capabile input devices: you likely just change a button
>>> state, and keep drawing the cursor at the last location
>>> >
>>> > - updrag-incapable input devices - you likely
>>> release/forget/recycle the ID number
>>> >
>>> > SUMMARY: web3d specs may need more terms to describe input device
>>> classes and capabilities more abstractly
>>> >
>>> > - up-drags
>>> >
>>> > - drag-ID
>>> >
>>> > - drag-ID recycling
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 AM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:gpugroup at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Drags need an ID ie 1,2,3 and that comes normally in windows 7
>>> desktop WM_TOUCH events, or more precisely you can get an index number in a
>>> lookup table of touches.
>>> >
>>> > A mouse-friendly use of a MultiDragSensor:
>>> >
>>> > - your regular pointing device ray might be ID=1
>>> >
>>> > - to create a second ray, you can park/freeze ID=1 with some
>>> mouse or keyboard button ie MMB - and push a 2nd one with ID=2 onto a stack
>>> >
>>> > - then you would move drag ID= 2, until done with scaling and
>>> rotation, and unfreeze / pop to get back to dragging ID=1 - maybe same
>>> button- and have your ray loop forget about ID=2 after that, until the user
>>> repeats the cycle. Or something like that.
>>> >
>>> > SUMMARY: yes - it can be abstracted from touch devices, but
>>> you still need a per-drag ID.
>>> >
>>> > -Doug
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:18 AM Spec Feedback <
>>> spec-comment at web3d.org <mailto:spec-comment at web3d.org>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > -- Submitter indicates that this comment may be public: *Yes* --
>>> >
>>> > Comment on 19775-1: X3D Architecture - V3.0
>>> > MultiTouchSensor
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----------------
>>> > MultiTouchSensor > Touch vs Drag > MutliDragSensor
>>> > In theory it should be called something that abstracts it from the
>>> particular
>>> > type of input device.
>>> > Drag is more input device neutral - there could be other device-neutral
>>> > terms.
>>> > For example a typical game controller has 2 thumb sticks that could
>>> act like
>>> > 2 touches.
>>> > A combination of device gyro -in HMD or mobile phone or Wii
>>> Controller- and
>>> > freeze-button could shoot one ray, freeze it as one touch, then shoot
>>> another
>>> > ray to drag.
>>> > Internally, code works with a plane sensor xy origin when a button goes
>>> > down/a ray is shot, then a drag xy is compared to the orgin xy to see
>>> how far
>>> > in what direction: internally its drag-oriented and doesn't care what
>>> device
>>> > shot the rays.
>>> > -----------------
>>> >
>>> > Submitted on Saturday, 2020, June 13 - 11:18am
>>> > by dougsanden (dougsanden )
>>> > IP: 75.159.18.239
>>> >
>>> > See: https://www.web3d.org/node/1694/submission/4039
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> > http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d_web3d.org
>>> >
>>> >
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>>> >
>>>
>>> all the best, Don
>>> --
>>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>> +1.831.656.2149
>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>>> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>
>>
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