[x3d-public] X3D4 PBR specification review: updates and demos. Join Web3D Consortium!

Wed Mar 4 09:32:48 PST 2020

Thanks for the good description (and eye-popping work!) Michalis.  It is thrilling to see other experts closely comparing and immediately helping to converge on the best possible solutions for X3D4.

For those eager to learn more: many pages and much information that tracks X3D4 evolution can be found at

* X3D Version 4 Overview
   https://www.web3d.org/x3d4

Regarding timeline and release dates, Web3D bylaws and procedures require several formal steps and coordination.  The 2020 milestones calendar is being considered carefully by Web3D Board and leadership.

As stated numerous times and also clearly executed at the end of 2019, the X3D working group is now completely focused on finishing all proposed work for X3D4.  Dick Puk and I are the designated specification editors for Web3D Consortium and for ISO Standards Committee SC24.  There is still a lot of work to do, of course.  We believe we can have all specification issues and prose sections completed late this spring, perhaps May.

It must be obvious to everyone that all technical X3D Working Group efforts have been fully open with a steady stream of archived details, ever since we began.  X3D4 development details have been public throughout its evolution.  Further there is a draft specification snapshot published at SIGGRAPH last year.

The X3D4 specification remains visible on github to all Web3D members, including occasional invited experts (such as Michalis).  The existence of the PR8 pull request is certainly evidence of our shared commitment to serious work and serious updates, public progress reports, and eventually public review of final draft specification when ready for voting.

The major missing piece, in my strongly held personal opinion, is that there is insufficient professional membership and advocacy within Web3D, despite these massive levels of community interest and activity.  The Board of Directors is not receiving much input from the public/community/professional direction, even though it is utterly important.

An emerging opportunity will be annual Web3D Board of Directors elections in the next month or two.  Who is considering running for that office?

May I also note that we have 4 emerging mature codebases in multiple programming languages for X3D4 (THANKS!) and *all of them are open source* implementations: X3DOM, X_ITE, CastleGameEngine and FreeWrl.  Also notable is that there are no known commercial implementations... There are also multiple X3D4 converters evolving that certainly work with a steadily growing set of formats and standards and editors and tools.  We have also achieving forward/backward compatibility:  X3D version 3.3 implementations and models continue to steadily improve, with no loss of any existing capability foreseen in any X3D4 improvements.

All X3D participants deserve our mutual thanks and admiration.  We are succeeding.

However I also confess that, despite listening for years to important individuals describe reasons why they had not yet decided to join Web3D Consortium, the rationales fall short and are not convincing.  The non-profit Web3D Consortium is why we have multiple fully open standards (X3D, VRML, HAnim) and also why we have an open forum for development.  Content is king, and we know where all valuable content eventually lands: on the Web, using open standards.  Long-term stability is crucial, our achievements are compelling, and Web3D Consortium is the foundation.

There are a number of excellent ideas about how we could open up our X3D design and development even further.  I certainly hope that we continue to progress in those ways, and personally remain committed to that.  However I am not the "decider" and not the person to convince... Web3D Consortium members together have the voice that builds consensus and steers how our organization's support proceeds.

We can do better than the current imbalance of interests.

You all have my strongest recommendation: join, demonstrate your resolve, and make your case for even-better improvements.   As ever, we proceed and make real progress best together.

* Join the Web3D Consortium
   https://www.web3d.org/join

Very respectfully yours.

On 3/3/2020 1:29 PM, Michalis Kamburelis wrote:
> We discussed the issue of making this work available for public review
> (that is, for non-members too) during today's talk. I know that I
> would very much prefer that, and in general have the whole
> https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/ just open to public. But it's
> a complicated decision that involves other people, so I'll leave Don
> to best answer it. For now
> https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/pull/8 is for members-only.
> 
> In the meantime, I can promise that I will document the new X3D
> nodes/fields within the Castle Game Engine documentation, and have it
> very soon (within next week or such), and this documentation will be
> public. While it will not be a copy of the X3Dv4 PR #8, it  will
> hopefully explain all the important details. I hope to make the PR
> mostly-finished by March 13, and also make a public documentation of
> new nodes/fields on CGE website by that day. The CGE implementation is
> of course already open-source and publicly available.
> 
> Various documentation and summary of the new nodes is in my wiki
> https://github.com/michaliskambi/x3d-tests/wiki/Specification-changes,-to-include-PBR-and-related-features
> , https://github.com/michaliskambi/x3d-tests/wiki/X3D-version-4:-New-features-of-materials,-lights-and-textures
> . But these wiki pages are admittedly a bit outdated/incomplete now.
> 
> P.S. Let me share one of the first screenshots of X3Dv4 with
> PhysicalMaterial implementing  proper PBR equations :) 12 teapots,
> with varying roughness and metallic. Everyone can recreate this
> screenshot by opening
> https://github.com/michaliskambi/x3d-tests/blob/master/pbr/physical_material/metallic_roughness.x3dv
> with the latest view3dscene from
> http://michalis.ii.uni.wroc.pl/view3dscene-snapshots/ .
> 
> Regards,
> Michalis
> 
> wt., 3 mar 2020 o 21:44 GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> napisał(a):
>>
>> Q. is there a way to see the draft? If I follow the pull 8 link I get 404.
>> -Doug
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 11:45 AM Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Attendees: Michalis Kamburelis, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman
>>>
>>> Michalis showed and described a number of updates to the Physically Based Rendering (PBR) capabilities for X3D4, matching glTF capabilities.  Variations in lighting, normal mapping, textures and many other features look great!  Very dramatic progress.  8)
>>>
>>> [1] X3D4 draft specification, pull request 8
>>>       https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/pull/8
>>>
>>> [2] Test scenes
>>>       https://github.com/michaliskambi/x3d-tests/tree/master/pbr
>>>
>>> Now contains demo of
>>>     - Material with diffuseTexture combined with emissiveTexture, normalTexture, shininessTexture, specularTexture, ambientTexture
>>>     - UnlitMaterial
>>>     - PhysicalMaterial
>>> - UnlitMaterial added
>>> - PhysicalMaterial for punctual lights implemented
>>>     - with metallic/roughness tests
>>>
>>> CGE view3dscene github/snapshot version is supporting latest work.
>>>
>>> * https://castle-engine.io
>>>
>>>     with dev snapshots at
>>> * http://michalis.ii.uni.wroc.pl/view3dscene-snapshot
>>>
>>> TODO list of all nodes added and changed - mostly covered in draft spec, implementation efforts continue.
>>>
>>> Animation button has been added to current view3dscene that supports fine-grained animation control.  Cool and helpful!  (Screenshot attached).
>>>
>>> Possibility of automating screenshot images and videos via command line: this will be a good feature to start exercising as part of the examples so that everyone can see what expected rendering looks like.  This would put good reference examples.
>>>
>>> - Don is currently tuning NPS Xj3Dv2.2 for such images and will explore how we can do this with view3dscene for advanced rendering + X3D4 support.
>>>
>>> Long-term: keeping these examples in place is great.  Will further think about how to best locate Michalis' open-source reference examples in Web3D version control as part of overall X3D4 delivery.
>>>
>>> Looking ahead, near term:  more work continues, but it seems like time to share this big effort for viewing comment.  It will take time for everyone to absorb.
>>>
>>> Comparing with glTF is especially useful... we will convert/implement all of the glTF examples for direct comparison.  Some small X3D4 differences will be evident (for example allowing lighting-equation variability and differing default values for glTF lighting coefficients/fields). We also expect to consider gamma correction.
>>>
>>> X3D weekly teleconference discussion/demonstration planned for 13 March.
>>>
>>> - Discussion point includes whether it is OK to start a public/implementer comment period.
>>>
>>> - Future edits to draft spec will be in PR8, but not until Michalis/Dick/Don are ready.
>>>
>>> - When the working group agrees that draft X3D4 PBR PR8 is at a sufficient level of maturity, important topic will be when can public review begin.  This will be important to make sure we have an excellent implementation.  Sooner will be better than later.
>>>
>>> I must add that Web3D membership has value.  If you have not yet joined, please consider doing so.
>>>
>>> * Join the Web3D Consortium
>>>     https://www.web3d.org/join
>>>
>>> Everyone (member and public) interested should plan to attend the Friday March 13 meeting.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile: heavy applause for Michalis!!  Here we go...
>>>
>>> all the best, Don
>>> --
>>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br       brutzman at nps.edu
>>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA   +1.831.656.2149
>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org

all the best, Don
-- 
Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br       brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA   +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman