[x3d-public] [x3dom-users] Whither protoexpander in X3DOM? umm, just define input-to-output and write code
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Wed May 27 17:48:39 PDT 2020
Guys, I’m kinda panicking that replaceWorld() seems unavailable in the
X_ITE version I am using.
John
On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:44 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
> Considering it is likely that any Proto implementation in X3DOM will only
> be available in an Inline or similar url inclusion how worthwhile is it?
> Have we considered CORS yet?
>
> John
>
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 4:57 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Learning how to design and implement X3DOM *and* namescopes *and* perhaps
>> X_ITE at the same time is pretty much beyond my paygrade, unless I get a
>> doctorate (honorary is fine) in return. I have been a application
>> programmer for most of my career. That's pretty much what I enjoy doing.
>> That's why they didn't let me into SGI. They wanted a systems guy.
>>
>> I think I *can* design and implement a DOM to DOM proto expander (for any
>> kind of DOM--use it with HTML or SVG if you like), if given adequate
>> supervision/help, since I've nearly implemented a JSON proto expander.
>> This should not require learning much about X3DOM, from what I see in the
>> X3DOM code. Doug should know how far we can carry this and perhaps where
>> the gotchas are.
>>
>> But how well it will work is another question. Perhaps we should assign
>> component levels to each feature I will implement? I know the first level
>> :).
>>
>> Guys & gals, I'm getting anxiety. This is NOT good. I can't do squat
>> with anxiety, and we will be walking around this email thread for a very
>> long time. Note that i *can* compose emails with anxiety! Seriously!
>>
>> So what's more valuable, an X3DOM Proto handler, or a generic DOM to DOM
>> proto expander that can be applied in many use cases in XML and/or HTML?
>> Which one is eminently more doable?
>>
>> A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Let's work on something
>> with wider scope than X3D/X3DOM/X_ITE. Maybe we can get other people to
>> play in our sandbox.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 4:22 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Andreas, when you expand the ProtoInstances, the scoping disappears,
>>> thus you need to put the instance scope in any DEF or name that appears in
>>> the ProtoBody.
>>>
>>> Are we implementing an expander, or full on Protos?
>>>
>>> Sorry if I haven't made this clearer.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 4:02 PM Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I created a test for namescopes in Inline nodes:
>>>>
>>>> https://gist.github.com/andreasplesch/f959aaaf04475922bdfbdf1aaca8476b
>>>>
>>>> This is using the same DEF names for clock, interpolator and material
>>>> for both the main scene and within the Inline scene.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to work fine, without interference between the inline and main
>>>> scopes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://gist.githack.com/andreasplesch/f959aaaf04475922bdfbdf1aaca8476b/raw/a6d08ddb67eb055dd4ada4624374c8712cf15893/namescope_x3dom2.html
>>>>
>>>> The idea will be to use the same mechanism for ProtoInstances. I think
>>>> the spec. requires that each ProtoInstance has its own namescope.
>>>>
>>>> -Andreas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 3:43 PM Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi John,
>>>> >
>>>> > I think Inline in x3dom properly isolates the namescope within Inlines
>>>> > from the namescope of the main scene. So it should be possible to have
>>>> > DEF/USE names within an Inline which are identical with ones in the
>>>> > main scene, without causing confusion. Perhaps there is an example for
>>>> > that to test with.
>>>> >
>>>> > -Andreas
>>>> >
>>>> > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:03 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > I think the big monster in the closet is whether we have to rewrite
>>>> DEF/USE/name values (for ROUTEs at least), or if we can use X3DOM's
>>>> namespaces. If we have to rewrite the values, I don't see value in using
>>>> X3DOM's infrastructure--we just hand it an expanded DOM.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > John
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:50 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> I see one issue with approach, but it is a good first step:
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> In current ProtoExpander, name values, DEF/USE values are
>>>> rewritten. So Scripts attributes, ROUTE attributes, etc. need to be
>>>> rewritten as well. That's only the second step. So really, the whole
>>>> scene needs be examined. It will become difficult, I think, to extract the
>>>> non-Inlined, non-ExternProtoDeclare items from the existing DOM. So we are
>>>> limited to Inlines, or how X_ITE does it with the URL in X3DCanvas tag.
>>>> JSON is limited to Inlines, so limiting to Inlines is probably OK. But
>>>> we'll need to ask Don about his examples and converters. Note that
>>>> X3DJSONLD is not limited to Inlines though, but it loads JSON from files,
>>>> which is equivalent.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Suggestions? It's good to think simple cases, but we need a
>>>> holistic approach to design if we're going to solve this.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> So we have
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> 1. Use Inlines
>>>> > >> 2. Rewrite DEF/USE/name.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> John
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:00 PM Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> As discussed Monday: Prototype Expander may have general value,
>>>> but primary need is adding Prototype support to X3DOM.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> Recommend scrapping all options as distracting alternative future
>>>> work.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> Simply focus on the X3DOM prize in JavaScript. Path to get there
>>>> is a straight line:
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> 1. Concept: ProtoDeclare is a template definition, ProtoInstance
>>>> creates a scene subgraph.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> 2. Thus the only resulting code of interest looks like X3DOM
>>>> scene subgraph.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> 3. Collect and create corresponding pairs of (a) inputs
>>>> (ProtoDeclare/ProtoInstance) and (b) outputs (X3DOM scene subgraph).
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> 4. The ProtoExpander is native X3DOM javascript code reads 3(a)
>>>> and creates 3(b).
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> ====================
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> That's it. No really.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> Recommended first model for input/output inventory: ArtDeco00,
>>>> which is a simple Material node.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> *
>>>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/UniversalMediaMaterials/ArtDecoPrototypesIndex.html
>>>> > >>> *
>>>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/UniversalMediaMaterials/ArtDecoPrototypes.json
>>>> > >>> *
>>>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/UniversalMediaMaterials/ArtDecoExamplesIndex.html
>>>> > >>> *
>>>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/UniversalMediaMaterials/ArtDecoExamples.json
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> JSON input
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> { "ProtoDeclare":
>>>> > >>> {
>>>> > >>> "@name":"ArtDeco00",
>>>> > >>> "@appinfo":"UniversalMediaMaterials prototype",
>>>> > >>> "@documentation":"
>>>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/UniversalMediaMaterials
>>>> ",
>>>> > >>> "ProtoBody": {
>>>> > >>> "-children":[
>>>> > >>> { "Material":
>>>> > >>> {
>>>> > >>> "@ambientIntensity":0.25,
>>>> > >>> "@diffuseColor":[0.282435,0.085159,0.134462],
>>>> > >>> "@shininess":0.127273,
>>>> > >>> "@specularColor":[0.276305,0.11431,0.139857]
>>>> > >>> }
>>>> > >>> }
>>>> > >>> ]
>>>> > >>> }
>>>> > >>> }
>>>> > >>> },
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> JSON result of interest:
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> { "Material":
>>>> > >>> {
>>>> > >>> "@ambientIntensity":0.25,
>>>> > >>> "@diffuseColor":[0.282435,0.085159,0.134462],
>>>> > >>> "@shininess":0.127273,
>>>> > >>> "@specularColor":[0.276305,0.11431,0.139857]
>>>> > >>> }
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> First draft of converter: extract everything inside ProtoBody,
>>>> ignore the rest.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> So you are now halfway to first example. If that is how JSON
>>>> says it in JavaScript, how does X3DOM say it in JavaScript?
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> If still puzzled, here is a second-opinion point of comparison:
>>>> how does X_ITE say it?
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> Have fun with X3D JavaScript, I hope...
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> On 5/26/2020 9:29 AM, John Carlson wrote:
>>>> > >>> > There's also choice of data structure
>>>> > >>> >
>>>> > >>> > 1. Mostly DOM/JDON, relying on functions
>>>> > >>> > 2. Full X3DJSAIL-like data structure
>>>> > >>> > 3. Just the Proto classes.
>>>> > >>> >
>>>> > >>> > On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 2:59 AM John Carlson <
>>>> yottzumm at gmail.com <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> > >>> >
>>>> > >>> > 1. Keep current implementation, debug it
>>>> > >>> > 2. Add XML -> JSON -> XML to current implementation. Code
>>>> is written, but not tested extensively
>>>> > >>> > 3. Write a new version in XML
>>>> > >>> > 4. Copy and port X_ITE's Proto code.
>>>> > >>> > 5. Write a new XML based proto expander.
>>>> > >>> >
>>>> > >>> > We *do* want at least an XML proto expander.
>>>> > >>> >
>>>> > >>> > Anyone want to help with any of these? There are a lot of
>>>> options.
>>>> > >>> >
>>>> > >>> >
>>>> > >>> >
>>>> > >>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > >>> > X3dom-users mailing list
>>>> > >>> > X3dom-users at lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> > >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/x3dom-users
>>>> > >>> >
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> all the best, Don
>>>> > >>> --
>>>> > >>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>>> > >>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>>> +1.831.656.2149
>>>> > >>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>>>> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Andreas Plesch
>>>> > Waltham, MA 02453
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Andreas Plesch
>>>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>>>
>>>
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