[x3d-public] Fw: ProtoInstance USE without name
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Sun Nov 29 11:21:38 PST 2020
We are autogenerating the JSON schema. We are not autogenerating the XML
schema (yet). That is the main difference at this point.
A different autogenerating tool may have different requirements. I think my
main requirement was to simplify the schema, so there wasn't a massive
combinatorial explosion. USE already creates a massive headache. We don't
want to make validation and correction impossible, it's already hard enough.
If someone wants to provide a line number reporting tool as part of the
JSON parsing and validation, that would be great! We already have
jsonlint, I suggest something might start from that.
John
On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 1:06 PM Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
> Sorry to miss the whole email party... hope you landed where we landed
> before. There was a bunch of mail about this, perhaps a year ago,
> searchable in mail archives.
>
> For X3D XML encoding:
>
> * X3D Tooltips: ProtoInstance
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoInstance
>
> * https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoInstance.name
>
> "Warning: name must be specified unless this ProtoInstance is a USE node."
>
> The name field is omitted as part of USE declarations since it is
> duplicative (i.e. already defined in original ProtoInstance DEF) and also
> in order to avoid possibility of mismatched name between DEF and USE.
>
> Perhaps more words should be added to the tooltip warning? Will think
> about it.
>
> Only a few tools can enforce this in validation, since ProtoInstance
> declaration with @name field and optional DEF is also legitimate.
>
> This is a requirement that will get checked int the X3D XML Encoding
> document when we revise it next year.
>
>
> On 11/29/2020 10:38 AM, Christoph Valentin wrote:
> >
> > Great. This fits perfectly to the fact that I started to develop my
> scenes for BS, Octaga and Instant those times.
> >
> > --
> > Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
> gesendet.
> > Am 29.11.20, 19:24 schrieb Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>:
> >
> > Some results of testing browsers:
> >
> > freeWrl: A and B works, C does not
> > InstantPlayer: A and C renders, B does not, warning: "obligatory
> name is missing"; no sound in any on my system
> > view3dscene: A, B and C work, no warnings in any.
> > Octaga: A,B and C work, no warnings in any.
> >
> > In addition, I replaced "Script" with "Group" in C, with the same
> results in all browsers. This indicates that some browsers essentially
> ignore the Node type in a xml encoded USE node, following the VRML style of
> USE.
> >
> > [ So, in the XML encoding, we could have had a <USE name="DEFname"
> /> construct which may have been discussed but was decided against, perhaps
> for reasons of validation. ]
> >
> > Only InstantPlayer requires the name attribute in a USE
> ProtoInstance, indicating a gap in the xml specification. While requiring
> the name attribute would be cleaner, in my view, it would break backward
> compatibility. Therefore explicitly USE without name for ProtoInstances
> makes the most sense to me. This would make InstantPlayer a little
> non-compliant.
> >
> > Cheers, -Andreas
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 10:00 AM Christoph Valentin <
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at <mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>> wrote:
> >
> > The archive has been updated.
> > . Removed the unused prototype
> > two additional editorial corrections
> > to be crystal clear: the optimum would be to have a clear X3D
> standard and to remove the workaround forever.
> > @all: do other users have similar experiences with
> ProtoInstances, DEF and USE? I am not the only user of X3D, am I?
> > kr
> > *Gesendet:* Sonntag, 29. November 2020 um 15:39 Uhr
> > *Von:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at <mailto:
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at>>
> > *An:* "Andreas Plesch" <andreasplesch at gmail.com <mailto:
> andreasplesch at gmail.com>>
> > *Cc:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org
> <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
> > *Betreff:* Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name
> > Hi Andreas,
> >
> > The MoosTrigger can be deleted. I forgot it there, sorry (it
> would be used for MU capability). I will correct asap.
> >
> > The only theory I have is that the external behaviour of scripts
> and protos regarding the event cascade is very similar. Both have fields
> that can be arbitrarily defined. So a reference to a script can hold a
> reference to a ProtoInstance.
> >
> > Sorry I am not a Browser developer, but I am a (potential) user
> of X3D, dont know so much about X3D internals. It could even be an
> intention of the standard.
> >
> > kr
> >
> > --
> > Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX
> Mail gesendet.
> > Am 29.11.20, 15:24 schrieb Andreas Plesch <
> andreasplesch at gmail.com <mailto:andreasplesch at gmail.com>>:
> >
> > Hi Christoph,
> > The Pig proto is using a "Moostrigger" proto. Should the
> Mosstrigger proto be included in the archive, or can it be ignored, eg.
> commented out ?
> > I am struggling to understand how Version C, the Script
> workaround, could work:
> > <!-- the second pig , version C - ProtoInstance WITHOUT name
> -->
> > <Transform translation='3 0 0' rotation='0 1 0
> -1.57'>
> > <Script USE="ThePig"/>
> > </Transform>
> > and the ThePig DEF is:
> > <ProtoInstance DEF="ThePig" name='Pig'/>
> > So the ThePig DEF is not a Script node. ( And the Pig proto
> is of Group type. ). It seems like it is just a coincidence that it works
> with BSContact. Perhaps BSContact somehow treats all ProtoInstances as
> Scripts ?
> > Do you have a theory why the workaround actually works with
> some browsers ?
> > Thanks, Andreas
> > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 3:46 PM Andreas Plesch <
> andreasplesch at gmail.com <mailto:andreasplesch at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, I will take a look.
> > ---on the phone---
> > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:17 AM Christoph Valentin <
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at <mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Andreas,
> > I felt free to provide an example scene in three
> flavors.
> > The prototype renders a little pig that says
> "Eatme!", when you touch it (in remembrance of Douglas Adams)
> > Version A: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx" name="yyy"/>
> WITH name attribute - standards compliant
> > Version B: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx"/> WITHOUT name
> attribute
> > Version C: <Script USE="xxx"/> WORKAROUND - works
> for all browsers
> > I tested with BS Contact --- he can cope with all
> three versions.
> > Download the .zip file at
> https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/ProtoInstanceWithUSE/ <
> https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/ProtoInstanceWithUSE/> I provide it
> by a GPLv3.
> > Feed Back welcome. You may take it and give it to
> your benchmark tests, if you like.
> > Kind regards,
> > Christoph
> > *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 24. November 2020 um 00:30 Uhr
> > *Von:* "Andreas Plesch" <andreasplesch at gmail.com
> <mailto:andreasplesch at gmail.com>>
> > *An:* "Christoph Valentin" <
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at <mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>>
> > *Cc:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <
> x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
> > *Betreff:* Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE
> without name
> > Hi Christoph,
> > thanks, interesting. Perhaps it will be useful to
> try a USE ProtoInstance in a very simple scene, in multiple browsers.
> > -Andreas
> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 1:01 PM Christoph Valentin <
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at <mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> > This bug is common to many X3D players (even
> classical non-WebGL X3D players).
> > I was used to use following workaround, which
> worked for all relevant players:
> > If I want to USE a DEFd ProtoInstance, I will
> actually instantiate a <Script> node with USE.
> > KR,
> > Christoph
> > *Gesendet:* Montag, 23. November 2020 um 00:00
> Uhr
> > *Von:* "Andreas Plesch" <andreasplesch at gmail.com
> <mailto:andreasplesch at gmail.com>>
> > *An:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <
> x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
> > *Betreff:* [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE
> without name
> > Looking at why the old Prototypes for HAnim did
> not work properly for x3dom, I found that the xml examples typically have a
> ProtoInstance statement with a USE attribute but without the corresponding
> name attribute defining the actual node type. However, x3dom expects a name
> attribute with every ProtoInstance statement, even USE ones, to be able to
> insert the appropriate node.
> > The xml spec at
> >
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement
> <
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement
> >
> > does not address USE of ProtoInstances but all
> examples always have a name attribute.
> > Also, in my quite extensive testing of Protos, I
> did not come across other examples of ProtoInstance elements without a name
> attribute.
> > To be fair, the name attribute is not strictly
> necessary for USE ProtoInstances since the type of the inserted node can be
> determined from the referenced DEF node. But having the name attribute
> makes ProtoInstance elements more similar to regular nodes. So I think not
> requiring the name attribute for USE ProtoInstances should be explicitly
> allowed in the xml spec., but still be encouraged.
> > I do not think the xml spec. would be otherwise
> affected by V.4 ?
> > Best, Andreas
>
>
> all the best, Don
> --
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
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