[x3d-public] Fw: ProtoInstance USE without name
Andreas Plesch
andreasplesch at gmail.com
Sun Nov 29 13:27:12 PST 2020
Validator complaints:
A: PigCompliant.x3d
7. Schematron check
<ProtoInstance DEF="" USE="ThePig" name="Pig"/> includes unnecessary
attribute name='Pig' which is not permitted for ProtoInstance USE node
[/X3D/Scene/Transform/ProtoInstance, error]
Well, the name attribute actually is permitted, at least in the spec.,
since ProtoInstance is not a x3d node by itself. Not sure why the validator
claims it is not permitted. In addition, I think name should be allowed (
ideally required but not possible due to backward compatibility ).
B: PigNoName.x3d
7. Schematron check
<Sound DEF=''/> minBack='40' maxBack='100' has minBack value greater than
maxBack value [/X3D/Scene/ProtoDeclare/ProtoBody/Group/Sound, error] <Sound
DEF=''/> minFront='40' maxFront='100' has minFront value greater than
maxFront value [/X3D/Scene/ProtoDeclare/ProtoBody/Group/Sound, error]
misfire of Validator, since 40 is not greater than 100. Perhaps
alphabetical comparison rather than numerical in stylesheet.
C: PigWorkaround.x3d
<Script USE='ThePig'/> node type must match node type of original
<ProtoInstance DEF='ThePig'/> [/X3D/Scene/Transform/Script, error]
Yes, pretty obvious but still accepted by quite a few browsers.
On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 3:54 PM Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
> On 11/29/2020 10:51 AM, John Carlson wrote:
> >
> > This seems to be a pointer to part of the thread:
> >
> >
> http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2017-September/007480.html
> <
> http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2017-September/007480.html
> >
>
> yup.
>
> Nice to test implementations, checking out the playing field. Meanwhile
> specification remains paramount and validation tools implement those
> rules. This is definitely an "edge case" since strict validation is
> challenging, but (mercifully) strict correctness is possible.
>
> Wondering, did you test your examples A B and C in X3D Validator? Hard to
> be confident they are correct otherwise. Confounding unrelated problems can
> confuse, GIGO... further if you find a curious or badly responding case,
> then that will help us improve diagnostics even further.
>
> * X3D Validator is a Web application that comprehensively checks X3D scene
> validity
> https://savage.nps.edu/X3dValidator
>
> > On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:46 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com
> <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Everyone please remember this conversation. Or perhaps put a link to
> this thread on a website which discusses USE and name tradeoffs for nodes.
>
> put prior summary reported to Christophe into tooltips for ProtoInstance
> name and USE.
>
> * X3D Scene Authoring Hints: Inline Scenes and Prototype Templates
>
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dSceneAuthoringHints.html#Inlines
>
> * X3D Scene Authoring Hints: 🔖 Prototype Instances
>
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dSceneAuthoringHints.html#ProtoInstance
>
> * X3D4 Tooltips.html ProtoInstance has links to schema, dtd, mail list
> search, mantis issues, schema doctype SAI etc.
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoInstance
>
> * https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoInstance.name
>
> "Warning: name must be specified unless this ProtoInstance is a USE node.
> Do not include name with ProtoInstance USE since it is duplicative (i.e.
> name is already defined in the DEF instance) and this approach avoids
> potential name mismatches."
>
> * https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoInstance.USE
>
> "Warning: do not define a name field in a USE node, the correct name can
> already be found in the original ProtoInstance DEF node."
>
> ... and these tooltip improvements ripple helpfully into documentation
> embedded during next build/deploy of X3DUOM, X3DJSAIL Java, X3DPSAIL x3d.py
> Python package, and X3D Ontology turtle comments/labels. So continued
> scrutiny and improvements remains welcome.
>
> p.s. InstantReality is truly great but it also has a handful of
> bugs/quirks that haven't been touched for years. Am having trouble
> installing it on an alternate machine because it seems to be demanding
> obsolete Microsoft VisualStudio dll installations... Wondering if anyone
> is home there??
>
> have fun with X3D! 8)
>
>
> > There's another thread somewhere on the same ProtoInstance topic, if
> anyone cares to look.
> >
> > No changes to JSON Schema that I know of required!
> >
> > I believe there are still some statements which may have both USE
> and name. Those are OK, and noted.
> >
> > Thanks, guys!
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:24 PM Andreas Plesch <
> andreasplesch at gmail.com <mailto:andreasplesch at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Some results of testing browsers:
> >
> > freeWrl: A and B works, C does not
> > InstantPlayer: A and C renders, B does not, warning: "obligatory
> name is missing"; no sound in any on my system
> > view3dscene: A, B and C work, no warnings in any.
> > Octaga: A,B and C work, no warnings in any.
> >
> > In addition, I replaced "Script" with "Group" in C, with the
> same results in all browsers. This indicates that some browsers essentially
> ignore the Node type in a xml encoded USE node, following the VRML style of
> USE.
> >
> > [ So, in the XML encoding, we could have had a <USE
> name="DEFname" /> construct which may have been discussed but was decided
> against, perhaps for reasons of validation. ]
> >
> > Only InstantPlayer requires the name attribute in a USE
> ProtoInstance, indicating a gap in the xml specification. While requiring
> the name attribute would be cleaner, in my view, it would break backward
> compatibility. Therefore explicitly USE without name for ProtoInstances
> makes the most sense to me. This would make InstantPlayer a little
> non-compliant.
> >
> > Cheers, -Andreas
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 10:00 AM Christoph Valentin <
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at <mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>> wrote:
> >
> > The archive has been updated.
> > . Removed the unused prototype
> > two additional editorial corrections
> > to be crystal clear: the optimum would be to have a clear
> X3D standard and to remove the workaround forever.
> > @all: do other users have similar experiences with
> ProtoInstances, DEF and USE? I am not the only user of X3D, am I?
> > kr
> > *Gesendet:* Sonntag, 29. November 2020 um 15:39 Uhr
> > *Von:* "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at
> <mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>>
> > *An:* "Andreas Plesch" <andreasplesch at gmail.com <mailto:
> andreasplesch at gmail.com>>
> > *Cc:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <
> x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
> > *Betreff:* Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name
> > Hi Andreas,
> >
> > The MoosTrigger can be deleted. I forgot it there, sorry (it
> would be used for MU capability). I will correct asap.
> >
> > The only theory I have is that the external behaviour of
> scripts and protos regarding the event cascade is very similar. Both have
> fields that can be arbitrarily defined. So a reference to a script can hold
> a reference to a ProtoInstance.
> >
> > Sorry I am not a Browser developer, but I am a (potential)
> user of X3D, dont know so much about X3D internals. It could even be an
> intention of the standard.
> >
> > kr
> >
> > --
> > Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit
> GMX Mail gesendet.
> > Am 29.11.20, 15:24 schrieb Andreas Plesch <
> andreasplesch at gmail.com <mailto:andreasplesch at gmail.com>>:
> >
> > Hi Christoph,
> > The Pig proto is using a "Moostrigger" proto. Should the
> Mosstrigger proto be included in the archive, or can it be ignored, eg.
> commented out ?
> > I am struggling to understand how Version C, the Script
> workaround, could work:
> > <!-- the second pig , version C - ProtoInstance WITHOUT
> name -->
> > <Transform translation='3 0 0' rotation='0 1 0
> -1.57'>
> > <Script USE="ThePig"/>
> > </Transform>
> > and the ThePig DEF is:
> > <ProtoInstance DEF="ThePig" name='Pig'/>
> > So the ThePig DEF is not a Script node. ( And the Pig
> proto is of Group type. ). It seems like it is just a coincidence that it
> works with BSContact. Perhaps BSContact somehow treats all ProtoInstances
> as Scripts ?
> > Do you have a theory why the workaround actually works
> with some browsers ?
> > Thanks, Andreas
> > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 3:46 PM Andreas Plesch <
> andreasplesch at gmail.com <mailto:andreasplesch at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, I will take a look.
> > ---on the phone---
> > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:17 AM Christoph Valentin <
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at <mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Andreas,
> > I felt free to provide an example scene in three
> flavors.
> > The prototype renders a little pig that says
> "Eatme!", when you touch it (in remembrance of Douglas Adams)
> > Version A: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx"
> name="yyy"/> WITH name attribute - standards compliant
> > Version B: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx"/> WITHOUT
> name attribute
> > Version C: <Script USE="xxx"/> WORKAROUND -
> works for all browsers
> > I tested with BS Contact --- he can cope with
> all three versions.
> > Download the .zip file at
> https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/ProtoInstanceWithUSE/ <
> https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/ProtoInstanceWithUSE/> I provide it
> by a GPLv3.
> > Feed Back welcome. You may take it and give it
> to your benchmark tests, if you like.
> > Kind regards,
> > Christoph
> > *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 24. November 2020 um 00:30
> Uhr
> > *Von:* "Andreas Plesch" <andreasplesch at gmail.com
> <mailto:andreasplesch at gmail.com>>
> > *An:* "Christoph Valentin" <
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at <mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>>
> > *Cc:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <
> x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
> > *Betreff:* Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE
> without name
> > Hi Christoph,
> > thanks, interesting. Perhaps it will be useful
> to try a USE ProtoInstance in a very simple scene, in multiple browsers.
> > -Andreas
> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 1:01 PM Christoph
> Valentin <christoph.valentin at gmx.at <mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> > This bug is common to many X3D players (even
> classical non-WebGL X3D players).
> > I was used to use following workaround,
> which worked for all relevant players:
> > If I want to USE a DEFd ProtoInstance, I
> will actually instantiate a <Script> node with USE.
> > KR,
> > Christoph
> > *Gesendet:* Montag, 23. November 2020 um
> 00:00 Uhr
> > *Von:* "Andreas Plesch" <
> andreasplesch at gmail.com <mailto:andreasplesch at gmail.com>>
> > *An:* "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <
> x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
> > *Betreff:* [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE
> without name
> > Looking at why the old Prototypes for HAnim
> did not work properly for x3dom, I found that the xml examples typically
> have a ProtoInstance statement with a USE attribute but without the
> corresponding name attribute defining the actual node type. However, x3dom
> expects a name attribute with every ProtoInstance statement, even USE ones,
> to be able to insert the appropriate node.
> > The xml spec at
> >
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement
> <
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement
> >
> > does not address USE of ProtoInstances but
> all examples always have a name attribute.
> > Also, in my quite extensive testing of
> Protos, I did not come across other examples of ProtoInstance elements
> without a name attribute.
> > To be fair, the name attribute is not
> strictly necessary for USE ProtoInstances since the type of the inserted
> node can be determined from the referenced DEF node. But having the name
> attribute makes ProtoInstance elements more similar to regular nodes. So I
> think not requiring the name attribute for USE ProtoInstances should be
> explicitly allowed in the xml spec., but still be encouraged.
> > I do not think the xml spec. would be
> otherwise affected by V.4 ?
> > Best, Andreas
>
>
> all the best, Don
> --
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
--
Andreas Plesch
Waltham, MA 02453
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