[x3d-public] C/C++/C#---X3DCSAIL; specification and source meeting minutes
Don Brutzman
brutzman at nps.edu
Wed Sep 2 20:09:42 PDT 2020
Attendees: MWL, DPB
We are finally back in motion on these specifications and met today, making progress.
Full design plan (produced earlier) appears below today's minutes.
---
1. Specifications.
The Github site is where Web3D Consortium members have full access to draft specifications.
[1.1] Github, Web3D Consortium, X3D
https://github.com/Web3DConsortium
https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D
[1.2] X3D SAI Language Bindings
https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/tree/master/ISO-IEC19777
[1.3] X3D 19777-3 C Language Bindings
https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/tree/master/ISO-IEC19777/ISO-IEC19777-3/ISO-IEC19777-3v3.3/ISO-IEC19777-3v3.3-CD
[1.4] X3D 19777-4 C++ Language Bindings
https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/tree/master/ISO-IEC19777/ISO-IEC19777-4/ISO-IEC19777-4v3.3/ISO-IEC19777-4v3.3-CD
[1.5] X3D 19777-5 C# Language Bindings
https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/tree/master/ISO-IEC19777/ISO-IEC19777-5/ISO-IEC19777-5v3.3/ISO-IEC19777-5v3.3-CD
[1.6] X3D 19777 New Work Item Proposals (NWIP)
https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/X3D/tree/master/ISO-IEC19777/NWIP
Looking at each of the above Committee Draft (CD) directories, they were last touched 8 March 2019 (18 months ago).
*Myeong has updates to each of these. She is sending zip files and I will commit them into github.*
Because they have changed, and because we are now working to meet ISO deadlines, we think that these should all be saved separately as an updated Working Draft #1. So new directories will say "WD1" instead of "CD" to match our naming conventions.
Our next question is whether we should go to version 4.0 (rather than 3.3). This seems like a good idea... but there are several issues.
a. Are they complete for 4.0?
b. Does the relevant SAI 19775-2 for X3D also have to be updated?
c. Can we autogenerate the new parts of these language bindings to match X3D4.
We? are hoping that, following some further editorial work, that the answer to all three of these questions can become "yes" for X3D version 4.0.
[1.7] Web3D Recommended Standards
https://www.web3d.org/standards
[1.8] X3D 19775-2, ISO/IEC 19775-2:2015, V3.3,
X3D Abstract : Scene Access Interface (SAI)
International Standard (IS), 2015-04-24
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-2/V3.3/index.html
A quick review of Part 2: Scene access interface (SAI) looks like very very few changes will occur for the transition from X3D Architecture v3.3 to v4.0.
Recommended next steps:
d. Have a dedicated meeting of X3D Working to review both specification and Mantis issues list to see what changes are needed to create 19775-2 version 4.0.
e. If indeed small, then we create such a working draft on github.
f. If large, then we will defer to January 2021 following expected completion of X3D 19775-1 X3D version 4.0
g. We work on version 4 for all language bindings so that we don't have to repeat further specification revisions later.
Definitely the sequencing of this work needs to be considered in light of ISO deadlines and our ability to accomplish work.
Rephrase: if it is possible to go fast, let's try. Parallel work is likely possible since functionality is stable. If we are too busy, then we wait for January.
Dick please review and verify how we might best handle these specification drafts for ISO.
---
2. Example implementations.
Suwon University provided some example source code last year.
Two types of code are possible. First type is simply for handling data structures; second type is a renderer.
Last year's examples are all sitting in Web3D version control on SourceForge, with 5 subdiretories:
[2.0] X3D Sourceforge subversion arcchives
https://sourceforge.net/p/x3d/code/HEAD/tree/www.web3d.org/x3d/languages/
=
a. c, not seen: source code for nodes, or presentation on this work.
b. cpp, not seen: source code for nodes, or presentation on this work.
c. csharp, found: both source code for nodes and README presentation
Myeong has an excellent long presentation that describes many things in these archives, she will send and we will add.
At first is seems like the c and cpp directories do not include source implementations for each and every node (Box, Group, Appearance etc.) because they are actually found in the X3DLib .h files. There is typically a mix of Abstracts.h Concretes.h and X3DLib.h files, be sure to look closely. For example code patterns, see the following:
d. c, https://sourceforge.net/p/x3d/code/HEAD/tree/www.web3d.org/x3d/languages/c/X3DLib/Concretes.h
e. cpp, https://sourceforge.net/p/x3d/code/HEAD/tree/www.web3d.org/x3d/languages/cpp/X3DLib/Concretes.h
f. csharp, https://sourceforge.net/p/x3d/code/HEAD/tree/www.web3d.org/x3d/languages/csharp/3.X3DLib/X3DNode/ (many files)
Although all of this code was created manually (OMG!) everything looks to me like well-defined code patterns that might autogenerated from X3DUOM.
d. python: contains X3dPythonViewer which is a pure python viewer for X3D. This uses manual patterns but might be upgraded (by someone brave and magnificent!) to match our upgraded code patterns for X3DPSAIL.
[2.1] Python X3D Package x3d.py
https://pypi.org/project/x3d
[2.2] X3D Python Scene Access Interface Library (X3DPSAIL)
https://www.web3d.org/x3d/stylesheets/python/python.html
e. suwon (temporary holding directory, used only for sharing files prior to production)
To use X3DUOM to create both codebases and draft specification annexes, we can follow the existing solutions already provided for Java and Python.
Given today's code review, I can confirm that we can follow the exact approaches used already for Java and Python. The following summary provide much detail.
---
3. Next steps.
a. Specification: Myeong Dick and I can work on the sources.
b. Example implementations: *who wants to help* with the C, C++, C# interfaces? We need expert review on these interfaces and sample implementations before we try to standardize them.
c. Working group meeting: review scope of work to upgrade 19775-2 SAI to X3D 4.0. Soon, within a month.
d. Specification editors meeting, Myeong Don Dick: latest versions of documents in github. We will try to meet next week if that works for Dick.
e. Codebase generation meeting: when one or more volunteers are ready to help with review, we can then discuss.
Have fun with X3D using C, C++, C# !! 8)
Yours truly, Myeong and Don
On 8/11/2020 7:01 AM, Don Brutzman wrote:
> John, thanks for posting. There are a number of steps still to go, here is more information.
>
> a. We currently 2/3 complete in our virtual 3-week-long annual meeting for ISO Standards Committee 24. Ordinarily this is a dedicated 1-week face-to-face meeting, it is quite involved.
>
> b. Dr. Myeong Won Lee of Suwon University has provided an update to the C/C++/C# language bindings for X3D that were first proposed two years ago.
>
> [1] Web3D Consortium Members are now considering C, C++ and C# language bindings for
> #X3D Graphics International Standard. Member value continues to grow, early adopters are advised to join!
> All community feedback is welcome too.
> https://twitter.com/Web3DConsortium/status/984257256270135296
>
> c. The Scene Access Interface (SAI) language bindings are strictly defined by X3D specifications. No proprietary technology or external-library dependencies are required.
>
> [2] Web3D Recommended Standards
> https://www.web3d.org/standards
>
> d. We have captured all X3D scene-graph structure and typing in the X3D Unified Object Model (X3DUOM).
>
> [3] X3D Unified Object Model (X3DUOM)
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3DUOM.html
>
> e. We have achieved autogeneration from X3DUOM to open-source implementations that support SAI for Java, Python and Turtle. This occurs through careful consideration of design patterns to hold strictly designed data structures. This does not include any form of rendering or platform-specific adaptations.
>
> [4] X3D Graphics Standards Relationships
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dSpecificationRelationships.png
>
> f. A major benefit of autogeneration is that everything is exactly correct and can always track X3D4 refinements.
>
> g. As you know, we hope to repeat this pattern for JavaScript. Your experience with X3DJSONLD and JavaScript means that an autogenerated implementation oriented to Node.js is appealing.
>
> h. Once implementations are stable, we will have to write corresponding X3D SAI specifications to match, likely next spring.
>
> i. Professor Lee has also produced an example code library that should serve as a good basis for design templates.
>
> j. We hope to begin tackling this new task after SIGGRAPH.
>
> k. Since an unavoidable FAQ will be "How are the C/C++/C# implementations and specifications similar, and how are they different?" the X3D working group currently plans to work all three in tandem and submit all three specifications simultaneously. This approach will maximize consistency and best-of-breed design patterns.
>
> l. Clearly we will need multiple X3D experts who are each familiar with C, C++ and C# in order to achieve our goals of useful reusable open-source libraries and specifications.
>
> m. This is not a debate about programming styles or preferences, rather how do we produce the most platform-neutral APIs that are widely reusable.
>
> n. Resulting codebases will be hooked up to regression testing of the X3D Examples Archives.
>
> [5] X3D Resources, Examples: Scene Archives for X3D
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dResources.html#Examples
>
> o. Success is measured by how these libraries encourage adoption of X3D by C/C++/C# applications, either open source or commercial. Original announcement follows.
>
> [6] [x3d] X3D C and C++ language bindings NWIPs [corrected copy]
> http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2018-April/008598.html
>
> p. I'll be sending out an annual Web3D ISO liaison report to Web3D Consortium members in another week, once the SC24 meeting is complete. This report will get released publicly sometime afterwards.
>
> q. So the answer to most of your questions below is "same as before" with Java, Python, Turtle.
>
> Hope this makes sense. These are new big projects, adapting and repeating capabilities that we have already demonstrated three times.
>
> Worthy mountains to climb that make X3D ever-more available. Usually this is where business plans add a sentence saying, approximately, "total world domination to follow." 8)
>
> Thanks everyone for considering the possibilities. Have fun with X3D4! 8)
>
>
> On 8/10/2020 5:10 PM, John Carlson wrote:
>>
>> We're looking for some programmers to contribute to a project creating X3DCSAIL, a C/C++/C# version of X3DJSAIL.
>>
>> My question is, how will X3DCSAIL be different from OpenInventor or Coin3D or FreeWRL? Can these run headless? Can we adapt one of these to run headless? It looks like OpenInventor has a headless mode, but I'm not sure about the others.
>>
>> How might we pursue this library? What are the requirements? Who are the customers? Should we just create examples, and adopt one of the existing open source X3D browser implementations? Is there a website describing the goals of this project? Should I create one?
>>
>> I have something written in C++ that reads in X3D JSON and writes out X3D XML, but that's pretty much a prototype at this stage--works with a couple of cases. This opens up C++ X3D browser to the X3D JSON capabilities similar to how X3DJSONLD transformed X_ITE and X3DOM.
>>
>> The cplusplus version in in <X3DJSONLD>/src/main/cplusplus/src
>>
>> More testing is welcome!
>>
>> We currently do not have a X3dToC.xslt, but would appreciate examples of C++ code that people would like to develop to use X3DCSAIL, so we can pattern the appropriate stylesheet for the X3DCSAIL library.
>>
>> O can provide a C++ Serializer that will convert a DOM document to C++ using JavaScript code, but I'm also wondering what kind of target I should hit, similar to what we might do with a stylesheet.
>>
>> So we're just looking for C++ test cases at this point.
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
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