[x3d-public] Fw: Tiny VPN for Use by Web3D Community (max. 10 connections at a time)
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Wed Feb 3 19:17:07 PST 2021
I meant authorization, not authentication below.
On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 9:15 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
> I’m actually more concerned with authorization at this point.
>
> I am thinking about something like EMonkeyEngine.
>
> Yes, I understand that people have attempted 3D worlds plus authentication
> in the past.
>
> Perhaps we should dig into Open Croquet/Open Cobalt as well. Squeak is
> not my strong suit.
>
> I don’t want to work on this, I am merely throwing it out there. Session
> key is fine by me.
>
> John
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 4:57 PM Christoph Valentin <
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> I played around with PAM on my CentOS server, because I was eager to do
>> some very unusual things with system files authentication and LDAP
>> authentication. Oh, what a crap.
>>
>> Let's keep things easy. For voice chat we need a SIP server anyway (I'd
>> suggest kamailio.org), so we let the SIP Server do the authentication
>> and then just distribute a symmetric key / token to access the
>> communication channel. Keep it simple. I'll answer with a second, final,
>> e-mail. Please wait your answer :-)
>>
>> All the best
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 02. Februar 2021 um 07:52 Uhr
>> Von: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> An: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>> Cc: "Doug Sanden" <gpugroup at gmail.com>, "X3D Graphics public mailing
>> list" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] Fw: Tiny VPN for Use by Web3D Community (max.
>> 10 connections at a time)
>>
>> It may be useful to find “plugin authentication modules (PAM)” for ALP,
>> as developed for SYSVR4 and maybe Linux. I think Java or Jakarta EE may
>> have something too.
>>
>> There may be something more recent.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 9:00 PM Christoph Valentin <
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]> wrote:Just
>> to be complete: the "Tiny VPN" is now documented at the WWW:
>>
>>
>> https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/tiny-vpn[https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/tiny-vpn]
>>
>> Comments welcome, as always,
>>
>> KR
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Januar 2021 um 00:08 Uhr
>> Von: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]>
>> An: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]>
>> Cc: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]>
>> Betreff: [x3d-public] Fw: Tiny VPN for Use by Web3D Community (max. 10
>> connections at a time)
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> You can access the VPN's calendar directly at the experimental owncloud
>> web interface at my vServer:
>>
>> (owncloud is a framework mainly for file sharing, but also has calendar
>> and contacts via WebDav)
>>
>> URL
>> https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud[http://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud][https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5Bhttp://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5D]
>> <https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5Bhttp://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5D%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5Bhttp://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5D%5D>
>>
>> user name vpncal
>> password X3D4
>>
>> All the best
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 24. Januar 2021 um 15:35 Uhr
>> Von: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]>
>> An: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]>
>> Cc: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]>
>> Betreff: [x3d-public] Fw: Tiny VPN for Use by Web3D Community (max. 10
>> connections at a time)
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Please expect some maintenance work (short interruptions) next week
>> Saturday (30th January).
>>
>> I have now defined an online calendar for the VPN, to avoid flooding the
>> mailing list.
>>
>> The calendar can be easily integrated with the calendar on your Android
>> phone (see the green entry below!!!).
>>
>> Probably it is possible to integrate it with any smartphone (it uses the
>> WebDav standard), but I haven't tried.
>>
>> Installation instructions:
>> 1) Install DAVx5 on your Android smartphone (available at F-Droid)
>> 2) Create new DAVx5 account "vpncal at lc-soc-lc.at[mailto:
>> vpncal at lc-soc-lc.at]"
>> - URL:
>> https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/[https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/][https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5D]
>> <https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5D%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5D%5D>
>> - user: vpncal
>> - pw: X3D4
>> 3) Enable and trigger the synchronization of WebCal
>> 4) Go to "Calendar" App: make sure the "personal" calendar is activated
>> for display
>>
>> The installation instructions will be available at
>> https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental[https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental][https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5D]
>> <https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5D%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5D%5D>
>> soon.
>>
>>
>> If you have set the synchronization correctly, then it should be possible
>> for you to make calendar entries, too (e.g. test sessions, where you need
>> more than 2 connections, or some specific multicast address).
>>
>> KR
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Januar 2021 um 14:11 Uhr
>> Von: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]>
>> An: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]>
>> Betreff: [x3d-public] Tiny VPN for Use by Web3D Community (max. 10
>> connections at a time)
>>
>> Hi John, Gina Lauren, Jordi, and all interested in multiuser
>>
>> Being very curious to get to know, whether the "server-less mode" could
>> really work, I was thinking about what could I contribute?
>>
>> I have got this tiny vServer at hoststar.at[http://hoststar.at] (hosted
>> at some cloud in Germany), where I could implement a VPN for "server-less
>> experiments".
>>
>> Voilá
>>
>> So, if you have a Windows 10 client, then what you can do:
>>
>> 1) Install OpenVPN Connect software (community edition) -
>> https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/[https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/][https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5Bhttps://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5D]
>> <https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5Bhttps://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5D%5Bhttps://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5Bhttps://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5D%5D>
>>
>> 2) Unzip the config.zip from attachment into C:\Program
>> Files\OpenVPN\config
>>
>> 3) Start OpenVPN Client
>>
>> 4) Connect
>>
>> 5) Now your client is a multihomed host with an additional network
>> interface at 172.27.224.0/19[http://172.27.224.0/19]
>> <http://172.27.224.0/19%5Bhttp://172.27.224.0/19%5D>
>>
>> 6) The network 172.27.224.0/19[http://172.27.224.0/19]
>> <http://172.27.224.0/19%5Bhttp://172.27.224.0/19%5D> is an island. Only
>> people, who receive this e-mail, can connect.
>>
>> What is missing:
>>
>> a) a proof that multicast addresses work on the VPN
>> b) an online calendar to coordinate the multicast sessions at the VPN-> I
>> will provide this on request.
>>
>> KR,
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Januar 2021 um 01:34 Uhr
>> Von: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]>
>> An: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]>
>> Cc: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]>
>> Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>> Hi John,
>>
>> Currently having two issues:
>>
>> 1) can test the VPN only with two Windows clients -> you have to create
>> your own experience with the Linux client
>> 2) still have to make the VPN permanent -> now the VPN has to be
>> restarted manually after server restart.
>>
>> Pls. expect final answer by Saturday evening, CET.
>>
>> My plan:
>>
>> I will publish (at a hidden place):
>>
>> a) example configuration from Windows OpenVPN Connect client
>> b) ca-yeti.crt self-signed root certificate, which you have to trust
>> c) x3d-public.key private key for the Web3D community (not really private)
>> d) x3d-public.crt certificate for the Web3D community (signed by yeti ->
>> my server will let you in)
>> e) ta.key additional symmetric key (must be identical on client and
>> server)
>>
>> Physical restriction: max. 10 connections at the same time, dynamic IP
>> addresses from a private IPv4 range (
>> 172.27.224.0/19[http://172.27.224.0/19]
>> <http://172.27.224.0/19%5Bhttp://172.27.224.0/19%5D>).
>>
>> The VPN will be an island - the server will not route that subnet, unless
>> from one client to the others (hopefully including multicast packets - not
>> yet tested).
>>
>> KR
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 22. Januar 2021 um 07:38 Uhr
>> Von: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]>
>> An: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]>
>> Cc: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]>
>> Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>> I am now prepared to have a "client" of your UDP DIS server at
>> hoststar.at[http://hoststar.at]. I need things like address and port,
>> per X3D PDU nodes.
>>
>> If there is ssh information for reaching your server network, let me
>> know. This is my preferred method. I do not believe I need special
>> permission except for perhaps a new user account.
>>
>> I've never really used a VPN, and will probably need instructions. My
>> experience with VPN varies "not very useful" and "OMG, my friends are going
>> to steal my files."
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 1/10/21 11:28 PM, Christoph Valentin wrote:
>> If everything works fine (and if I've understood correctly), then you can
>> do tests with multicast IP transport, although you are geographically
>> separated.
>>
>> That's what I would like to try basically
>>
>> --
>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>> gesendet.
>> Am 11.01.21, 05:11 schrieb John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:
>> yottzumm at gmail.com]>[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com
>> ]]:
>> My friends have asked me to set up a VPN on my machine in the past. I
>> don't really see the value of a VPN.
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 7:03 PM Christoph Valentin <
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at][mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]]> wrote:
>>
>> What I am going to try is to setup a VPN with OpenVPN and my vServer at
>> hoststar.at[http://hoststar.at][http://hoststar.at[http://hoststar.at][
>> http://hoststar.at[http://hoststar.at]]], so we can do a test session
>> with DIS (hopefully).
>>
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 10. Januar 2021 um 23:13 Uhr
>> Von: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com
>> ][mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]]>
>> An: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at][mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]]>
>> Cc: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org][mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]]>
>> Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>>
>> What I was going to do is try to get DIS from GitHub and DIS from X_ITE
>> to talk to each other.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 1:08 PM Christoph Valentin <
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at][mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]]> wrote:
>> ok
>>
>> let me repeat your proposal:
>>
>> >>>>> Of the published work available in that regard, we have BS
>> Collaborate, DIS, and the Draft X3D Specification for NetworkSensor. I
>> think the first step would be to take these, see what they have in common,
>> and go from there for deeper analyses.
>>
>> I think everybody agrees.
>>
>> So what would be the very first step (before the first step)? Assign
>> responsibilities? Create a Wiki? Ask for official decision? Just do it?
>> Who? What? When? Create an official backlog? Use the S&P-ARK?
>>
>> kind regards
>> Christoph
>>
>> --
>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>> gesendet.
>>
>> Am 09.01.21, 07:40 schrieb Christoph Valentin <christoph.valentin at gmx.at
>> [mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at][mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at
>> [mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]]>:
>>
>> Not much,
>>
>> 1) It's another use case, which has proven it's usefulness during
>> SrrTrains v0.01:
>> - Customized Client Side Calculations
>> ( sent to x3d-public in January 2014:
>> https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf[https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf][https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf[https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf]][https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf[https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf][https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf[https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf]]][https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5D]
>> <https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5D%5D>
>> )
>>
>> 2) And an idea (which is not yet settled).
>> - idea is to have two levels of identification:
>> identify the sensor by "streamName" + "networkSensorId"
>> (BS Collaborate: only "streamName"
>> Octaga: only "networkSensorId")
>>
>> 1) the stream = the model = the real life entity
>> e.g. "car"
>> 2) the sensor nodes themselves
>> e.g. "steering", "motor", "doors"
>>
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Januar 2021 um 03:59 Uhr
>> Von: "GL" <info at 3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info at 3dnetproductions.com
>> ][mailto:info at 3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info at 3dnetproductions.com]]>
>> An: "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org][mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]]>
>> Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>>
>> I am not sure what results you are referring to. Did I miss something?
>>
>>
>> From: x3d-public [mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org][mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org]]] On Behalf Of Christoph Valentin
>> Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 9:21 PM
>> To: 'X3D Graphics public mailing list'
>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Re: X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>>
>>
>> so basically you want to ignore my results?
>>
>> --
>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>> gesendet.
>>
>> Am 09.01.21, 01:07 schrieb GL <info at 3dnetproductions.com[mailto:
>> info at 3dnetproductions.com][mailto:info at 3dnetproductions.com[mailto:
>> info at 3dnetproductions.com]]>:
>> Christoph,
>>
>> Thank you for the clarifications and your general dedication. I believe
>> that little misunderstandings should be addressed before they snowball into
>> bigger misconceptions.
>>
>>
>>
>> > If we specify a general Network Sensor API, then content can run
>> > with any X3D Player that supports the Network Sensor API.
>>
>> If you read again my last paragraph, I try to make a distinction between
>> a multiuser client and a X3D player. In other words, the player is not
>> necessarily the client. It appears to be a common misconception that the
>> X3D player must also be the MU client, while in truth it really doesn't
>> have to. For the reasons previously stated, I tend to prefer that the
>> player does not in fact act as the client.
>>
>>
>> > However, if I use the X3Daemon Client API, then I MUST use the X3Daemon
>> > Server, because the protocol is proprietary.
>>
>>
>> That is precisely why I am here. I do NOT want the application protocol
>> to be proprietary. And the fact that we still don't have a standard keeps
>> me from moving forward, because any development efforts I make may someday
>> have to be rewritten once we do have a standard. IOW, I am not a big fan of
>> reworking systems. I'd rather use open standards as early in the process as
>> possible to facilitate interoperability later.
>>
>>
>> > If the protocol was specified, then I could use ANY
>> > server with the X3Daemon Client.
>>
>>
>> Ideally, systems could interoperate, though there are other factors to
>> consider. For example avatars must login to authenticate their identity and
>> assets, consisting of information that may or may not be available to a
>> third party server. But yes, you get the general idea.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > It is not sufficient to specify the
>> > fields and the behaviour of the NetworkSensor node. ...,
>> > but I had the feeling that you want to
>> > omit the specification of the protocol.
>>
>>
>> Read again, I was referring specifically to network protocols. Still, at
>> this early stage, I feel it may be a little premature to get too involved
>> with an application protocol, that until we get a better grasp of what the
>> requirements will be. For this reason, I am of the opinion that fields and
>> events should be specified first. Just so that we have something to build
>> upon.
>>
>> Of the published work available in that regard, we have BS Collaborate,
>> DIS, and the Draft X3D Specification for NetworkSensor. I think the first
>> step would be to take these, see what they have in common, and go from
>> there for deeper analyses.
>>
>> Once we have that settled, IMO, only then should we turn to discuss an
>> application layer protocol and its ramifications. GL
>>
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: x3d-public [mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org][mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org]]] On Behalf Of
>> > Christoph Valentin
>> > Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 5:09 PM
>> > To: X3D Graphics public mailing list
>> > Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>> >
>> > Dear Gina Lauren
>> >
>> > Please find some feed back *inline*.
>> >
>> > Generally, please do not judge too hard, I'm not a native speaker and
>> still
>> > some of my wordings do not fit to the real intention.
>> >
>> > Kind regards,
>> > Christoph
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >You want to lock in your users. That's not the spirit of open source.
>> >
>> > For once I was beginning to open up about the inner workings of a
>> multiuser
>> > system, but surprisingly, you apparently don't want to hear about it.
>> It is
>> > difficult to talk about open standards for a NSN if we can't refer to
>> > actual implementations. It's not like there are a lot of them around..
>> > [CV]: I should not have written this. However, I was a little bit
>> > impatient, because I have been preaching for years and years that the
>> > protocol itself must be specified. It is not sufficient to specify the
>> > fields and the behaviour of the NetworkSensor node. Maybe I did not read
>> > your words sufficiently thoroughly, but I had the feeling that you want
>> to
>> > omit the specification of the protocol.
>> >
>> > Also, who said anything about open source being a requirement? I was
>> > actually volunteering closed source information for the benefit of an
>> open
>> > standard. If you can't see that I was actually "giving" something to the
>> > community.. then perhaps I am wasting my time???
>> > [CV]: Here I used "open source" and meant "open protocols", sorry, my
>> > mistake. And, yes, I also "gave" a lot. Using too much time for my
>> hobbies,
>> > was one major reason, why my wife left us in 2015 (afterwards the
>> SrrTrains
>> > v0.01 project fell into hibernation mode due to lack of resources).
>> >
>> > Finally, if you would like to discuss an application layer protocol,
>> maybe
>> > look into work that has been done in the past referred to as vrtp and
>> x3dp.
>> > Not much, but a starting point. So far I have only heard vague comments
>> > about SCTP, UDP, etc. (see below)
>> > [CV]: I am sure that many people have contributed many parts of the
>> puzzle.
>> > Now we need somebody, who fits all together (that's not me, is it?)
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > [CV]: I never suggested to specifiy the transport protocol (http, rtp,
>> > > sctp, tcp, msrp, sip, xmpp, ........).
>> >
>> > hhhmmm.. I'm confused, what is this about???
>> > [CV]: Let's assume, we specify an "Application Layer Protocol" (let's
>> call
>> > it ALP in the sense of a "working title"). Probably the ALP will
>> consist of
>> > the definition of a few PDUs (e.g. in XML, JSON, YAML or similar
>> syntax).
>> > Now we have to define, how the PDUs have to be transmitted over the
>> > network. Will they be sent as payload in http messages (in the body)?
>> Will
>> > they be sent as payload in SIP messages (in the body)? Will they be sent
>> > directly over tcp connections?
>> > To get historically: at the beginning of the IETF they had a great
>> > movement. You could get T-Shirts with the meme "IP over everything". IP
>> > should connect any network with any network, building the
>> Inter-network. So
>> > they had to write one RFC for each L2 protocol in order to specify, how
>> IP
>> > has to be transported over any L2 link/network.
>> > I am dreaming of an "ALP over everything" movement.
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >[CV]: SCTP and UDP are members of the TCP/IP protocol family. UDP is as
>> > >old as TCP, just simpler. SCTP is younger. It tries to merge advantages
>> > >of both TCP and UDP and was originally invented to transport SS7
>> protocols
>> > >(SIGTRAN). SCTP supports 64k streams per association, what perfectly
>> fits
>> > >to our needs, imho
>> >
>> > Why are you trying to lecture me about network protocols? And what is it
>> > exactly that you are saying or not saying, I find rather perplexing and
>> > fail to see the relevancy. Let's keep going...
>> > [CV]: I thought you wrote "SCTP is not TCP/IP". I want to stress that
>> SCTP
>> > actually IS TCP/IP
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >[CV]: Actually I suggested to specifiy ONE AND ONLY ONE application
>> layer
>> > protocol,
>> >
>> > No-one is questioning this as far as I know. Isn't that precisely what
>> we
>> > are trying to do?
>> > Why are you augmenting this in my comments?
>> >
>> > [CV]: (see above) Maybe I did not read your words sufficiently
>> thoroughly,
>> > but I had the feeling that you want to omit the specification of the
>> > protocol.
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >[CV]: The API (i.e Network Sensor) must be specified to run ONE content
>> > with ANY X3D Player.
>> >
>> > Let's be careful here. The X3D player does not necessarily need to have
>> > agency over the application protocol. For example the X3Daemon client
>> > (sorry to bring it up) is entirely separate from the player other than
>> for
>> > interpreting ECMAScripts and rendering the results to screen. IOW, the
>> > X3Daemon client can theoretically run in any X3D player, regardless of
>> > internal multiuser coding, as long as ECMAScript (JavaScript) is
>> supported.
>> > This makes it very easy for authors to script avatar and object
>> behaviors,
>> > since it provides direct access to X3D nodes. It is also a reason why we
>> > need to define a NetworkSensor node as part of the X3D standard.
>> > [CV]: That's exactly what I am saying: you specified your X3Daemon
>> client
>> > API, so a content that uses that API, can theoretically run with ANY X3D
>> > Player (that the X3Daemon client supports). If we specify a general
>> Network
>> > Sensor API, then content can run with any X3D Player that supports the
>> > Network Sensor API.
>> > However, if I use the X3Daemon Client API, then I MUST use the X3Daemon
>> > Server, because the protocol is proprietary. If the protocol was
>> specified,
>> > then I could use ANY server with the X3Daemon Client. It's similar with
>> BS
>> > Contact and BS Collaborate.
>> > Most customers are very sensitive about getting locked in. No matter if
>> > open source or closed source. We (my employer) made this experience with
>> > railway operators, too.
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> > GL
>> >
>> > ________________________________________________________
>> > * * * Interactive Multimedia - Internet Management * * *
>> > * * Virtual Reality -- Application Programming * *
>> > * 3D Net Productions 3dnetproductions.com[http://3dnetproductions.com][
>> http://3dnetproductions.com[http://3dnetproductions.com][
>> http://3dnetproductions.com[http://3dnetproductions.com]][
>> http://3dnetproductions.com[http://3dnetproductions.com][
>> http://3dnetproductions.com[http://3dnetproductions.com]]]] *
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
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