[x3d-public] What’s next after Tiny VPN test?
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Wed Feb 3 19:43:15 PST 2021
The other thing about multiuser systems is you don’t want to duplicate the
essential features of the OS. This includes the OS with chrooting, IPC,
multiuser chat, etc. See Alan Kay’s NSF grant. What *not* to do is
something like Project Darkstar, unless it is the OS. If all else fails,
run your game server in a virtual machine.
I’m fine with creating your own OS for multiuser systems. Just don’t
reinvent all the names for OS features.
John
On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 8:56 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
> The main purpose of Web3d is to create standards for *animation* on the
> web.
>
> That is what I think we as a group should focus on. This means particle
> systems, rigid body physics, key framing, HAnim motion, and fluid dynamics.
>
> We have the challenge of doing this declaratively in the standards.
>
> In particular, we are looking for things that work well with VRML and XML.
>
> I believe a lot of effort was previously put into converting the standards
> to schemas and object models. This is where I’ve spent most of my time.
>
> On my own, I have devised multiuser systems for games, chat, and editing.
>
> So if we want to devise multiuser systems for animation, we need
> experience with both.
>
> I do not have much experience with animation.
>
> What is the path for learning animation with X3D?
>
> This is why many of my questions have not been about subjects and objects,
> but verbs imperatives and predicates.
>
> How do we carefully bring verbs into X3D?
>
> How does one create behavior declaratively?
>
> What is the animator’s version of XSLT? How does an animator produce
> XSLT?
>
> If I bring someone studying computational fluid dynamics, how can we
> leverage his expertise?
>
> John
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 5:52 PM Christoph Valentin <
> christoph.valentin at gmx.at> wrote:
>
>> Hello John, Hello All, Gina Lauren, Don, Jordi, and all I do not know,
>>
>> Long pause......thinking.
>>
>> If you have got children, what do you wish for them?
>>
>> Money?
>>
>> Success?
>>
>> Healthiness?
>>
>> I mean, a software is nothing else than another child.
>>
>> To get strong, it will eat up all your ressources - and it will be right
>> to do so.
>>
>> Or do we want to add another weak hungry lost child to the bunch of lost
>> children?
>>
>> Are we ready to go? Are we strong enough?
>>
>> IDK.
>>
>> What I could contribute:
>> the repository github.com/christoph-v/spark for the ALP part of the
>> project (X_ITE based)
>> the repository github.com/christoph-v/psark for the DIS part of the
>> project (FreeWRL based)
>> the 2 extensions and 5 MIDAS Objects from the SMUOS project (John 6:9
>> :) ) as a metaphor for the meaning of the project
>> the tiny VPN
>>
>> All the best
>> Yours Christoph
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 02. Februar 2021 um 07:42 Uhr
>> Von: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> An: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
>> Cc: "Doug Sanden" <gpugroup at gmail.com>, "X3D Graphics public mailing
>> list" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> Betreff: What’s next after Tiny VPN test?
>>
>> Christoph, I was thinking of implementing a game of tag (not XML) or kick
>> the can (not bucket) on a 3D globe as a starter implementation of an app in
>> either ALP or DIS. To do this, we will have to identify the nodes
>> necessary in ALP or DIS.
>>
>> If you want to choose an open source X3D browser to implement this in,
>> I’m all ears. Doug, in particular, wanted to do. something interplanetary.
>>
>> I have implemented tag or something like it on two platforms, including
>> WebGL Earth/Leaflet + socket.io[http://socket.io], so I have some
>> experience.
>>
>> I think this will provide X3D a leg up over the competition, with the
>> whole earth to visit, not just one room, but also something to do while
>> you are there. It would also be fun to implement a chat functionality
>> with translation (we may have to charge).
>>
>> Spatial sound would be a neat addition! Does ALP provide for MU sound?
>>
>> If you want to keep the graphics as they are, and redo the MU details,
>> I’m open to that too.
>>
>> I’m not limited to X3D or DIS, but we should probably consider XML.
>>
>>
>> I already have a meta server available for finding games with players.
>>
>> I would hope that the MU technology developed could be standardized and
>> used beyond this project and beyond X3D. In particular, adding MU to
>> PlayCanvas would be interesting.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 9:00 PM Christoph Valentin <
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]> wrote:Just
>> to be complete: the "Tiny VPN" is now documented at the WWW:
>>
>>
>> https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/tiny-vpn[https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/tiny-vpn]
>>
>> Comments welcome, as always,
>>
>> KR
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Januar 2021 um 00:08 Uhr
>> Von: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]>
>> An: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]>
>> Cc: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]>
>> Betreff: [x3d-public] Fw: Tiny VPN for Use by Web3D Community (max. 10
>> connections at a time)
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> You can access the VPN's calendar directly at the experimental owncloud
>> web interface at my vServer:
>>
>> (owncloud is a framework mainly for file sharing, but also has calendar
>> and contacts via WebDav)
>>
>> URL
>> https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud[http://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud][https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5Bhttp://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5D]
>> <https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5Bhttp://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5D%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5Bhttp://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud%5D%5D>
>>
>> user name vpncal
>> password X3D4
>>
>> All the best
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 24. Januar 2021 um 15:35 Uhr
>> Von: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]>
>> An: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]>
>> Cc: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]>
>> Betreff: [x3d-public] Fw: Tiny VPN for Use by Web3D Community (max. 10
>> connections at a time)
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Please expect some maintenance work (short interruptions) next week
>> Saturday (30th January).
>>
>> I have now defined an online calendar for the VPN, to avoid flooding the
>> mailing list.
>>
>> The calendar can be easily integrated with the calendar on your Android
>> phone (see the green entry below!!!).
>>
>> Probably it is possible to integrate it with any smartphone (it uses the
>> WebDav standard), but I haven't tried.
>>
>> Installation instructions:
>> 1) Install DAVx5 on your Android smartphone (available at F-Droid)
>> 2) Create new DAVx5 account "vpncal at lc-soc-lc.at[mailto:
>> vpncal at lc-soc-lc.at]"
>> - URL:
>> https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/[https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/][https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5D]
>> <https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5D%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/%5D%5D>
>> - user: vpncal
>> - pw: X3D4
>> 3) Enable and trigger the synchronization of WebCal
>> 4) Go to "Calendar" App: make sure the "personal" calendar is activated
>> for display
>>
>> The installation instructions will be available at
>> https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental[https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental][https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5D]
>> <https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5D%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5Bhttps://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental%5D%5D>
>> soon.
>>
>>
>> If you have set the synchronization correctly, then it should be possible
>> for you to make calendar entries, too (e.g. test sessions, where you need
>> more than 2 connections, or some specific multicast address).
>>
>> KR
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Januar 2021 um 14:11 Uhr
>> Von: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]>
>> An: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]>
>> Betreff: [x3d-public] Tiny VPN for Use by Web3D Community (max. 10
>> connections at a time)
>>
>> Hi John, Gina Lauren, Jordi, and all interested in multiuser
>>
>> Being very curious to get to know, whether the "server-less mode" could
>> really work, I was thinking about what could I contribute?
>>
>> I have got this tiny vServer at hoststar.at[http://hoststar.at] (hosted
>> at some cloud in Germany), where I could implement a VPN for "server-less
>> experiments".
>>
>> Voilá
>>
>> So, if you have a Windows 10 client, then what you can do:
>>
>> 1) Install OpenVPN Connect software (community edition) -
>> https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/[https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/][https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5Bhttps://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5D]
>> <https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5Bhttps://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5D%5Bhttps://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5Bhttps://openvpn.net/community-downloads/%5D%5D>
>>
>> 2) Unzip the config.zip from attachment into C:\Program
>> Files\OpenVPN\config
>>
>> 3) Start OpenVPN Client
>>
>> 4) Connect
>>
>> 5) Now your client is a multihomed host with an additional network
>> interface at 172.27.224.0/19[http://172.27.224.0/19]
>> <http://172.27.224.0/19%5Bhttp://172.27.224.0/19%5D>
>>
>> 6) The network 172.27.224.0/19[http://172.27.224.0/19]
>> <http://172.27.224.0/19%5Bhttp://172.27.224.0/19%5D> is an island. Only
>> people, who receive this e-mail, can connect.
>>
>> What is missing:
>>
>> a) a proof that multicast addresses work on the VPN
>> b) an online calendar to coordinate the multicast sessions at the VPN-> I
>> will provide this on request.
>>
>> KR,
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Januar 2021 um 01:34 Uhr
>> Von: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]>
>> An: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]>
>> Cc: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]>
>> Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>> Hi John,
>>
>> Currently having two issues:
>>
>> 1) can test the VPN only with two Windows clients -> you have to create
>> your own experience with the Linux client
>> 2) still have to make the VPN permanent -> now the VPN has to be
>> restarted manually after server restart.
>>
>> Pls. expect final answer by Saturday evening, CET.
>>
>> My plan:
>>
>> I will publish (at a hidden place):
>>
>> a) example configuration from Windows OpenVPN Connect client
>> b) ca-yeti.crt self-signed root certificate, which you have to trust
>> c) x3d-public.key private key for the Web3D community (not really private)
>> d) x3d-public.crt certificate for the Web3D community (signed by yeti ->
>> my server will let you in)
>> e) ta.key additional symmetric key (must be identical on client and
>> server)
>>
>> Physical restriction: max. 10 connections at the same time, dynamic IP
>> addresses from a private IPv4 range (
>> 172.27.224.0/19[http://172.27.224.0/19]
>> <http://172.27.224.0/19%5Bhttp://172.27.224.0/19%5D>).
>>
>> The VPN will be an island - the server will not route that subnet, unless
>> from one client to the others (hopefully including multicast packets - not
>> yet tested).
>>
>> KR
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 22. Januar 2021 um 07:38 Uhr
>> Von: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]>
>> An: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]>
>> Cc: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]>
>> Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>> I am now prepared to have a "client" of your UDP DIS server at
>> hoststar.at[http://hoststar.at]. I need things like address and port,
>> per X3D PDU nodes.
>>
>> If there is ssh information for reaching your server network, let me
>> know. This is my preferred method. I do not believe I need special
>> permission except for perhaps a new user account.
>>
>> I've never really used a VPN, and will probably need instructions. My
>> experience with VPN varies "not very useful" and "OMG, my friends are going
>> to steal my files."
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 1/10/21 11:28 PM, Christoph Valentin wrote:
>> If everything works fine (and if I've understood correctly), then you can
>> do tests with multicast IP transport, although you are geographically
>> separated.
>>
>> That's what I would like to try basically
>>
>> --
>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>> gesendet.
>> Am 11.01.21, 05:11 schrieb John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:
>> yottzumm at gmail.com]>[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com
>> ]]:
>> My friends have asked me to set up a VPN on my machine in the past. I
>> don't really see the value of a VPN.
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 7:03 PM Christoph Valentin <
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at][mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]]> wrote:
>>
>> What I am going to try is to setup a VPN with OpenVPN and my vServer at
>> hoststar.at[http://hoststar.at][http://hoststar.at[http://hoststar.at][
>> http://hoststar.at[http://hoststar.at]]], so we can do a test session
>> with DIS (hopefully).
>>
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 10. Januar 2021 um 23:13 Uhr
>> Von: "John Carlson" <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com
>> ][mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]]>
>> An: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at][mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at]]>
>> Cc: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org][mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]]>
>> Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>>
>> What I was going to do is try to get DIS from GitHub and DIS from X_ITE
>> to talk to each other.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 1:08 PM Christoph Valentin <
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at][mailto:
>> christoph.valentin at gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]]> wrote:
>> ok
>>
>> let me repeat your proposal:
>>
>> >>>>> Of the published work available in that regard, we have BS
>> Collaborate, DIS, and the Draft X3D Specification for NetworkSensor. I
>> think the first step would be to take these, see what they have in common,
>> and go from there for deeper analyses.
>>
>> I think everybody agrees.
>>
>> So what would be the very first step (before the first step)? Assign
>> responsibilities? Create a Wiki? Ask for official decision? Just do it?
>> Who? What? When? Create an official backlog? Use the S&P-ARK?
>>
>> kind regards
>> Christoph
>>
>> --
>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>> gesendet.
>>
>> Am 09.01.21, 07:40 schrieb Christoph Valentin <christoph.valentin at gmx.at
>> [mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at][mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at
>> [mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]]>:
>>
>> Not much,
>>
>> 1) It's another use case, which has proven it's usefulness during
>> SrrTrains v0.01:
>> - Customized Client Side Calculations
>> ( sent to x3d-public in January 2014:
>> https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf[https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf][https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf[https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf]][https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf[https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf][https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf[https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf]]][https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5D]
>> <https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5Bhttps://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf%5D%5D%5D%5D>
>> )
>>
>> 2) And an idea (which is not yet settled).
>> - idea is to have two levels of identification:
>> identify the sensor by "streamName" + "networkSensorId"
>> (BS Collaborate: only "streamName"
>> Octaga: only "networkSensorId")
>>
>> 1) the stream = the model = the real life entity
>> e.g. "car"
>> 2) the sensor nodes themselves
>> e.g. "steering", "motor", "doors"
>>
>>
>>
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Januar 2021 um 03:59 Uhr
>> Von: "GL" <info at 3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info at 3dnetproductions.com
>> ][mailto:info at 3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info at 3dnetproductions.com]]>
>> An: "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org][mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public at web3d.org]]>
>> Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>>
>> I am not sure what results you are referring to. Did I miss something?
>>
>>
>> From: x3d-public [mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org][mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org]]] On Behalf Of Christoph Valentin
>> Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 9:21 PM
>> To: 'X3D Graphics public mailing list'
>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Re: X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>>
>>
>> so basically you want to ignore my results?
>>
>> --
>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
>> gesendet.
>>
>> Am 09.01.21, 01:07 schrieb GL <info at 3dnetproductions.com[mailto:
>> info at 3dnetproductions.com][mailto:info at 3dnetproductions.com[mailto:
>> info at 3dnetproductions.com]]>:
>> Christoph,
>>
>> Thank you for the clarifications and your general dedication. I believe
>> that little misunderstandings should be addressed before they snowball into
>> bigger misconceptions.
>>
>>
>>
>> > If we specify a general Network Sensor API, then content can run
>> > with any X3D Player that supports the Network Sensor API.
>>
>> If you read again my last paragraph, I try to make a distinction between
>> a multiuser client and a X3D player. In other words, the player is not
>> necessarily the client. It appears to be a common misconception that the
>> X3D player must also be the MU client, while in truth it really doesn't
>> have to. For the reasons previously stated, I tend to prefer that the
>> player does not in fact act as the client.
>>
>>
>> > However, if I use the X3Daemon Client API, then I MUST use the X3Daemon
>> > Server, because the protocol is proprietary.
>>
>>
>> That is precisely why I am here. I do NOT want the application protocol
>> to be proprietary. And the fact that we still don't have a standard keeps
>> me from moving forward, because any development efforts I make may someday
>> have to be rewritten once we do have a standard. IOW, I am not a big fan of
>> reworking systems. I'd rather use open standards as early in the process as
>> possible to facilitate interoperability later.
>>
>>
>> > If the protocol was specified, then I could use ANY
>> > server with the X3Daemon Client.
>>
>>
>> Ideally, systems could interoperate, though there are other factors to
>> consider. For example avatars must login to authenticate their identity and
>> assets, consisting of information that may or may not be available to a
>> third party server. But yes, you get the general idea.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > It is not sufficient to specify the
>> > fields and the behaviour of the NetworkSensor node. ...,
>> > but I had the feeling that you want to
>> > omit the specification of the protocol.
>>
>>
>> Read again, I was referring specifically to network protocols. Still, at
>> this early stage, I feel it may be a little premature to get too involved
>> with an application protocol, that until we get a better grasp of what the
>> requirements will be. For this reason, I am of the opinion that fields and
>> events should be specified first. Just so that we have something to build
>> upon.
>>
>> Of the published work available in that regard, we have BS Collaborate,
>> DIS, and the Draft X3D Specification for NetworkSensor. I think the first
>> step would be to take these, see what they have in common, and go from
>> there for deeper analyses.
>>
>> Once we have that settled, IMO, only then should we turn to discuss an
>> application layer protocol and its ramifications. GL
>>
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: x3d-public [mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org][mailto:x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org[mailto:
>> x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org]]] On Behalf Of
>> > Christoph Valentin
>> > Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 5:09 PM
>> > To: X3D Graphics public mailing list
>> > Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
>> >
>> > Dear Gina Lauren
>> >
>> > Please find some feed back *inline*.
>> >
>> > Generally, please do not judge too hard, I'm not a native speaker and
>> still
>> > some of my wordings do not fit to the real intention.
>> >
>> > Kind regards,
>> > Christoph
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >You want to lock in your users. That's not the spirit of open source.
>> >
>> > For once I was beginning to open up about the inner workings of a
>> multiuser
>> > system, but surprisingly, you apparently don't want to hear about it.
>> It is
>> > difficult to talk about open standards for a NSN if we can't refer to
>> > actual implementations. It's not like there are a lot of them around..
>> > [CV]: I should not have written this. However, I was a little bit
>> > impatient, because I have been preaching for years and years that the
>> > protocol itself must be specified. It is not sufficient to specify the
>> > fields and the behaviour of the NetworkSensor node. Maybe I did not read
>> > your words sufficiently thoroughly, but I had the feeling that you want
>> to
>> > omit the specification of the protocol.
>> >
>> > Also, who said anything about open source being a requirement? I was
>> > actually volunteering closed source information for the benefit of an
>> open
>> > standard. If you can't see that I was actually "giving" something to the
>> > community.. then perhaps I am wasting my time???
>> > [CV]: Here I used "open source" and meant "open protocols", sorry, my
>> > mistake. And, yes, I also "gave" a lot. Using too much time for my
>> hobbies,
>> > was one major reason, why my wife left us in 2015 (afterwards the
>> SrrTrains
>> > v0.01 project fell into hibernation mode due to lack of resources).
>> >
>> > Finally, if you would like to discuss an application layer protocol,
>> maybe
>> > look into work that has been done in the past referred to as vrtp and
>> x3dp.
>> > Not much, but a starting point. So far I have only heard vague comments
>> > about SCTP, UDP, etc. (see below)
>> > [CV]: I am sure that many people have contributed many parts of the
>> puzzle.
>> > Now we need somebody, who fits all together (that's not me, is it?)
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > [CV]: I never suggested to specifiy the transport protocol (http, rtp,
>> > > sctp, tcp, msrp, sip, xmpp, ........).
>> >
>> > hhhmmm.. I'm confused, what is this about???
>> > [CV]: Let's assume, we specify an "Application Layer Protocol" (let's
>> call
>> > it ALP in the sense of a "working title"). Probably the ALP will
>> consist of
>> > the definition of a few PDUs (e.g. in XML, JSON, YAML or similar
>> syntax).
>> > Now we have to define, how the PDUs have to be transmitted over the
>> > network. Will they be sent as payload in http messages (in the body)?
>> Will
>> > they be sent as payload in SIP messages (in the body)? Will they be sent
>> > directly over tcp connections?
>> > To get historically: at the beginning of the IETF they had a great
>> > movement. You could get T-Shirts with the meme "IP over everything". IP
>> > should connect any network with any network, building the
>> Inter-network. So
>> > they had to write one RFC for each L2 protocol in order to specify, how
>> IP
>> > has to be transported over any L2 link/network.
>> > I am dreaming of an "ALP over everything" movement.
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >[CV]: SCTP and UDP are members of the TCP/IP protocol family. UDP is as
>> > >old as TCP, just simpler. SCTP is younger. It tries to merge advantages
>> > >of both TCP and UDP and was originally invented to transport SS7
>> protocols
>> > >(SIGTRAN). SCTP supports 64k streams per association, what perfectly
>> fits
>> > >to our needs, imho
>> >
>> > Why are you trying to lecture me about network protocols? And what is it
>> > exactly that you are saying or not saying, I find rather perplexing and
>> > fail to see the relevancy. Let's keep going...
>> > [CV]: I thought you wrote "SCTP is not TCP/IP". I want to stress that
>> SCTP
>> > actually IS TCP/IP
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >[CV]: Actually I suggested to specifiy ONE AND ONLY ONE application
>> layer
>> > protocol,
>> >
>> > No-one is questioning this as far as I know. Isn't that precisely what
>> we
>> > are trying to do?
>> > Why are you augmenting this in my comments?
>> >
>> > [CV]: (see above) Maybe I did not read your words sufficiently
>> thoroughly,
>> > but I had the feeling that you want to omit the specification of the
>> > protocol.
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >[CV]: The API (i.e Network Sensor) must be specified to run ONE content
>> > with ANY X3D Player.
>> >
>> > Let's be careful here. The X3D player does not necessarily need to have
>> > agency over the application protocol. For example the X3Daemon client
>> > (sorry to bring it up) is entirely separate from the player other than
>> for
>> > interpreting ECMAScripts and rendering the results to screen. IOW, the
>> > X3Daemon client can theoretically run in any X3D player, regardless of
>> > internal multiuser coding, as long as ECMAScript (JavaScript) is
>> supported.
>> > This makes it very easy for authors to script avatar and object
>> behaviors,
>> > since it provides direct access to X3D nodes. It is also a reason why we
>> > need to define a NetworkSensor node as part of the X3D standard.
>> > [CV]: That's exactly what I am saying: you specified your X3Daemon
>> client
>> > API, so a content that uses that API, can theoretically run with ANY X3D
>> > Player (that the X3Daemon client supports). If we specify a general
>> Network
>> > Sensor API, then content can run with any X3D Player that supports the
>> > Network Sensor API.
>> > However, if I use the X3Daemon Client API, then I MUST use the X3Daemon
>> > Server, because the protocol is proprietary. If the protocol was
>> specified,
>> > then I could use ANY server with the X3Daemon Client. It's similar with
>> BS
>> > Contact and BS Collaborate.
>> > Most customers are very sensitive about getting locked in. No matter if
>> > open source or closed source. We (my employer) made this experience with
>> > railway operators, too.
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> > GL
>> >
>> > ________________________________________________________
>> > * * * Interactive Multimedia - Internet Management * * *
>> > * * Virtual Reality -- Application Programming * *
>> > * 3D Net Productions 3dnetproductions.com[http://3dnetproductions.com][
>> http://3dnetproductions.com[http://3dnetproductions.com][
>> http://3dnetproductions.com[http://3dnetproductions.com]][
>> http://3dnetproductions.com[http://3dnetproductions.com][
>> http://3dnetproductions.com[http://3dnetproductions.com]]]] *
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
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