[x3d-public] New Discussion About 3D Network Protocol

Sun Jan 3 22:25:13 PST 2021

Gina Lauren, All,

Please find some response *inline*, marked by [CV]:

I also deleted text in the mail chain that does not relate to 3D Network Protocol and might be confusing in this context.

I am also referring to [1] BCP ALP over RTP ( https://github.com/christoph-v/spark/blob/master/ALP/01-ALP-over-RTP(BCP).pdf ).

Comments about [1] are welcome at [2] https://github.com/christoph-v/spark/issues

All the best
Christoph

Gesendet: Montag, 04. Januar 2021 um 01:48 Uhr
Von: "GL" <info at 3dnetproductions.com>
An: x3d-public at web3d.org
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] Programming by Demonstration. How LLNL's Programming By Demonstration Project (UT or TWB/TE) did/did not create interactive programs

Christoph,

I think it is necessary that we first specify what it is we wish to define in a 3D application network protocol. I see discussions relating to different layers, which can make it a little confusing.
[CV]: I'd suggest to refer to [1], chapters 2.2 and 2.3, where I tried to phrase the requirements (use cases).
      Comments are welcome to improve chapters 2.2 and 2.3 ([2])

Also, I feel that JavaScript or ECMAScript is probably welcome on the client side, since it works so well with X3D, so I am not sure I follow your comments in that regard, especially that avatars are generally scripted, even when played in classical players.
[CV]: I am open to learn new things, but the thing with the strict type checking for easier debugging is serious, imho

Perusing your recently published paper suggests that you are thinking of a different underlying network protocol than tcp/ip (i.e. SCTP over UDP), though I did not have time to look into it in details, being out of town for the new year. I will say that I am not necessarily against it, having considered SCTP myself for server-to-server communications, keeping in mind that this is a completely different layer of operation and that our purpose is X3D.
[CV]: SCTP and UDP are members of the TCP/IP protocol family. UDP is as old as TCP, just simpler. SCTP is younger. It tries to merge advantages of both TCP and UDP and was originally invented to transport SS7 protocols (SIGTRAN). SCTP supports 64k streams per association, what perfectly fits to our needs, imho

Furthermore, looking at the BS Contact example you published, I see that many fields and events are very similar to what is in use with X3Daemon, which is not surprising since they are essentially doing the same things.
[CV]: surprise, surprise ;-)

Perhaps a good start would be to compile a list of what has been done in the past with the various systems, and see where they coincide in terms of functionality and nomenclature. For example things like VRTP and DIS are of interest, and could give us a good basis to build upon. GL
[CV]: agree, but I rather see this as a job for the community at all.

...................text deleted....................

From: Christoph Valentin[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 5:43 AM
To: X3D Graphics public mailing list[mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org]
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] higher level networking and potential for animated semantics.

Gina Lauren,

Citing

[...]
One last note. While HTML5 has its place, I see it more as a stepping stone into lower lever applications. My opinion is that HTML5 can be a great way to help people get their feet wet, but to truly bring forward the power of 3D/VR into business apps, we need to be able to tap directly into modern graphics card APIs. Gina Lauren
[...]

I think the truth is manifold. X3D itself comes in many flavours.

1) WebGL based (poor performance, but will be supported by Browser Vendors, good for tinkering),

2) classical players written in *real* programming languages: better for professional usage.

3) If you need outstanding performance and development costs do not count (due to high number of sellings), then the classical game engine or even self-written game engine will fit your business plan

Nevertheless, the required 3D network protocol could be used by ALL of them, also the server software can be ONE. If the protocol is specified, then it can be used by any API, even concurrently in the same multiuser session.

We just need a volunteer, who implements and defines the protocol in his/her server (best 2 concurrent volunteers)

All the best

Christoph

...............................text deleted ......................................

From: Christoph Valentin[mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at]
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 7:00 PM
Cc: John Carlson[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]; Don Brutzman[mailto:brutzman at nps.edu]; X3D Graphics public mailing list[mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org]
Subject: Aw: Re: [x3d-public] higher level networking and potential for animated semantics.

Hi John, Gina Lauren, Don

Please confirm you have received this e-mail. I was encountering connectivity issues with my free-mail provider gmx.de[http://gmx.de] lately.

@John

Thanks for your contribution at the S&P-ARK WIKI. I am considering to merge it with the position issue and to move them both together to the digits WIKI (yet to be created :-) ).

@All - regarding the MU protocol story

May I officially suggest to use RTP and SCTP as transport protocols and to define an own "application layer protocol", as we brainstormed together in spring 2019 and I am currently going to describe in more detail?

I am going to be finished with the draft description by next weekend, but be AWARE: this is all phantasy, nothing has been implemented for this idea.

Comments are welcome already now.

https://github.com/christoph-v/spark/blob/master/ALP/01-ALP-over-RTP(BCP).pdf[https://github.com/christoph-v/spark/blob/master/ALP/01-ALP-over-RTP(BCP).pdf]

Kind regards,

Christoph

P.S.: since my employer is not interested in 3D graphics at all, I can guarantee to be unbiased ;-)

Gesendet: Samstag, 26. Dezember 2020 um 13:45 Uhr
Von: "GL" <info at 3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info at 3dnetproductions.com]>
An: "'John Carlson'" <yottzumm at gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com]>, "'Don Brutzman'" <brutzman at nps.edu[mailto:brutzman at nps.edu]>
Cc: "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <x3d-public at web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org]>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] higher level networking and potential for animated semantics.

John, Thank you for referencing some of my work. VR business has been a near life time goal of mine. Like you, I have realized many years ago that I couldn't do it alone. I was, however, very fortunate to have a group of X3D developers to share my ambitions. That culminated in the current state of 'Office Towers' which is still, unfortunately, not anywhere near the goals we had originally set out (circa 2008).

It is no secret that I have supported open standards for 3D on the web since the very beginning, 3D being a passion I had even before the web became a thing, back in the days of BBSs and the 'Remote Imaging Protocol' language for vector graphics over ASCII. I could also speak of several of our team members' impressive background.

But even with such a good team and all the drive we had to really make a difference, it wasn't enough. We needed an even bigger team that would have included more people in accounting, graphics design, marketing, sales, etc. with the ability to devote significant time to the project. In other words, I underestimated the scope of the project while over-estimating the staying power of people working from the goodness of their heart.

Perhaps we should've tried to seek funding, but seeing how other seemingly well funded endeavors failed almost consistently, this was never a decision I was prepared to make, and quite possibly the single most important reason why Office Towers remains up to this day.

However, we are now in a different time. I believe the ideas you brought forward are good if they can be integrated into sustainable business models and backed by reasonable injections of venture capital. Otherwise, enterprises with such attributes will always have the upper hand in the marketplace and continue to make it difficult for others to achieve a meaningful presence.

One thing I have learned for myself is that 'timing is everything'. Maybe now is the time for open standards deployment on a mass scale. Like many, I too long for standard 3D network protocols, and I like that you seem to be suggesting something in the lines of 'interaction protocols'.

One last note. While HTML5 has its place, I see it more as a stepping stone into lower lever applications. My opinion is that HTML5 can be a great way to help people get their feet wet, but to truly bring forward the power of 3D/VR into business apps, we need to be able to tap directly into modern graphics card APIs. Gina Lauren

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