[x3d-public] x3d-public Digest, Vol 142, Issue 17; multiuser and X3D4 refresh considerations

Wed Jan 6 01:27:01 PST 2021

Hi Don!
What I see is that a protocol for virtual worlds may need to move very heavy information at times, specially avatars. An avatar may be a simple ball or a very heavy and complex object, sometimes with lots of animations and even scripts, and most of it shared. The heavy process of a server is to process all that data being sent to all clients. Blaxxun did that by downloading the avatars to a cache, then load the cached avatars each time, reducing bandwidth this way, unless some model was updated. I suppose it looked at the size of the file or the date. Apart from avatars, what a network sensor node needs is to receive small amounts of data, and then the client does all the job, as everyone connected has a copy of the world. At least that is how Blaxxun did it.
A protocol for small things like MQTT may do the job for many simulations and for less massive situations. It may work well maybe in most situations, because virtual worlds are not usually crowded. I wonder if it can be some sort of bridge between virtual worlds and IoT things, Alexa, and arduinos, and all kind of gadgets, like controlling those small hardware from VR. Maybe there is some inspiring ideas there in MQTT and everything related.

I wonder if an hybrid architecture can also be possible. Maybe a server that connects peers and then one peer serves to nearby peers, so the server acts like an admiral and p2p clients are lieutenants. That way the server doesn't need to do all the job, and can do some culling based on proximity in the virtual world or other factors.
Now talking about non science-fiction and things that don't exist: I really like the new version of X3D4. Having network sensors for this subject is what is needed so solutions are popularized. 
Also, the PBR materials is what is needed so worlds look like modern 3d models. In the last years, the level of 3D works is much higher that never before, and people should see that X3D can show a good quality like in other 3D works. 
I saw view3dscene supports bump mapping but I don't know if others do (I think they don't), and at least things like that should be universal.
Thanks for the link, I'll see if I can install Xj3D again and update my files. 

My blog is this: http://news.hiperia3d.com/ 

You may like the Interviews section: http://news.hiperia3d.com/search/label/Interviews 
The blog has just returned to be active because of all this news about X3D. There is a lot of posts about old 3D products I did, but there are also historical interviews with interesting people. It is a bit outdated because these years I focused in my 3d modeling business (now in Artstation as Artistic Squad). Now I have an excuse to post again about X3D! I will also undust my plugin for Netbeans and the syntax for Notetab++ that I can now add all new X3D nodes to it.

I put some old worlds in vrml online with x_ite. They are too cheesy compared with the 3D work of nowadays, but they are fun and contain complex behaviors. The textures are horribly low and that is the worst thing. I hope I can use my current skills in better worlds now in 2021. If PBR, bump and normals were there already, we could do magic with X3D/VRML.You can visit the worlds in my personal site, in this section (the site is in Spanish but you just have to click the links to enter the worlds, x_ite works great): http://hipercubo.atwebpages.com/Mundos-VRML
Thanks for the welcome, and again congrats on all the work that is being done at Web3d!
-Jordi 

    On Tuesday, January 5, 2021, 5:18:20 PM GMT+1, Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:  

 Great to hear from you Jordi!  Thanks for the good words, welcome back, and Happy 2021.

When ready please let us know where to find your blog.

Lots of good ideas out there.  Agreed MQTT (https://mqtt.org) is interesting, one potential piece of larger puzzles.  Multi-user has been a challenge for 3 decades for good reasons, and progress gradually continues.  Seems like that arena is a lot more about practice than theory.  Going step-by-step to gradually increase model functionality always seems like a productive strategy.

NPS has an updated Xj3D 3.3 in open source, it will be nice to work on that again this year to gradually upgrade to X3D4 support.  Code changes and collaboration always welcome.

* Savage Developers Guide, Xj3D viewer: NPS source
  https://savage.nps.edu/Savage/developers.html#Xj3D

Please take a look at X3D4 specification.  Currently we have a public draft with both marked-up and pristine versions.

* https://www.web3d.org/x3d4

Sure seems like everyone is naturally focused on client-side 3D, but (as with HTML) am expecting that server-side 3D can have a major role too.  Of especial interest might be our additions to X3D functionality for any url (models, images, etc.) that permits simple control over autoRefresh intervals.

* 9.3.2 X3DUrlObject
  https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-WD3/Part01/components/networking.html#X3DUrlObject

If possible, please provide feedback during the current Web3D Consortium Member Ballot period.  The Web3D Board of Directors will consider reactions following the comment period, 15 DEC 2020 through 16 JAN 2021.  If successful and accepted, Web3D will consider all pending comments and submit an amended Committee Draft (CD) to ISO for continuing review and improvement.

Of potential interest is that the X3D JSON encoding is pretty mature.  Coming months will see JSON schema validation and a draft X3D file-encoding specification.

NPS continues work on use of Distributed Interactive Simulation (DIS) protocol.  Next month should have improvements to DIS stream > X3D interpolator code in our updated Open DIS Java library.

* [x3d-public] Repeatable Unit Testing of DIS Protocol Behavior Streams for X3D
  https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-July/013307.html

Given your experience, you may find X3D tooltips a helpful reference to find simple deltas from then to now.  The X3D Validator is also quite useful.  We have placed the highest possible priority on maintaining both backwards and forwards compatibility.

* X3D Tooltips, authoring hints for each node and field
  https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html

* X3D Validator: comprehensive Quality Assurance (QA) testing of X3D models
  https://savage.nps.edu/X3dValidator

The following year-end status message from a few weeks ago summarizes implementation support already available for X3D4.

* [x3d-public] X3D4 Architecture validation and implementation update, with thanks
  https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2020-December/014302.html

So... lots of capabilities available.  Feedback and improvements are always welcome.

Good luck with your work, have fun with X3D! 8)

v/r Don

On 1/5/2021 3:17 AM, jordircardona at yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Thank you so much to everybody for their answers.
> 
> Cecile, I will look more on the MQTT solution.
> 
> I will undust my old java Xj3d server I did years ago. For some reason it doesn't run now, I suppose it is because I need to recompile it.
> Maybe I can do something modern that works.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> -Jordi
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, January 5, 2021, 5:55:01 AM GMT+1, <x3d-public-request at web3d.org> wrote:
> 
> 
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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds (Christoph Valentin)
>    2. Re: X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds (Cecile Muller)
>    3. Re: X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds (Christoph Valentin)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 04:49:11 +0100
> From: Christoph Valentin <christoph.valentin at gmx.at <mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>>
> To: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
> Cc: jordircardona at yahoo.com <mailto:jordircardona at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
> Message-ID:
>      <trinity-eb515f01-46b6-4593-81af-30cf82b9328c-1609818551281 at 3c-app-gmx-bap69 <mailto:trinity-eb515f01-46b6-4593-81af-30cf82b9328c-1609818551281 at 3c-app-gmx-bap69>>
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 05:25:41 +0100
> From: Cecile Muller <contact at wildpeaks.fr <mailto:contact at wildpeaks.fr>>
> To: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
> Message-ID:
>      <CADPGUPY63LvMRMxBWYcbOdsWmSRqGN1P_dC=QTL8GCFryTgaCQ at mail.gmail.com <mailto:QTL8GCFryTgaCQ at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Good morning (and happy new year !),
> 
> 
> If you want to build something multi-users, nowadays I'd recommend MQTT:
> it's not specific to 3D,
> so you'd still need to create the application on top of it, but you could
> reach both applications and webapps
> with it (it can even run on low-end devices), and it's a proper documented
> standard.
> 
> Mosquitto on a small linux server is enough to get started,
> or you could use something like PubNub to not worry about scaling the
> backend.
> 
> 
> See you,
> Cecile
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 05:54:11 +0100
> From: Christoph Valentin <christoph.valentin at gmx.at <mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at>>
> To: Cecile Muller <contact at wildpeaks.fr <mailto:contact at wildpeaks.fr>>
> Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
> Message-ID:
>      <trinity-8175716d-5c46-4447-875e-59890e7d48a1-1609822451717 at 3c-app-gmx-bs33 <mailto:trinity-8175716d-5c46-4447-875e-59890e7d48a1-1609822451717 at 3c-app-gmx-bs33>>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Isn't MQTT the protocol of the IoT?
> 
> It needs a broker, doesn't it?
> 
> Just being curious.
> 
> KR,
> Christoph
> ?
> ?
> ?
> 
> Gesendet:?Dienstag, 05. Januar 2021 um 05:25 Uhr
> Von:?"Cecile Muller" <contact at wildpeaks.fr <mailto:contact at wildpeaks.fr>>
> An:?"X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>>
> Betreff:?Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds
> 
> Good morning (and happy new year !),
> ?
> ?
> If you want to build something multi-users, nowadays I'd recommend MQTT: it's not specific to 3D,
> so you'd still need to create the application on top of it, but you could reach both applications and webapps
> with it (it can even run on low-end devices), and it's a proper documented standard.
> Mosquitto on a small linux server is enough to get started,
> or you could use something like PubNub to not worry about scaling the backend.
> ?
> ?
> See you,
> Cecile_______________________________________________ x3d-public mailing list x3d-public at web3d.org <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org <http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org>
> 
all the best, Don
-- 
Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br      brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA  +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman

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