[x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures

Mon Dec 5 12:26:45 PST 2022

I got into Mantis, but not from the link provided, just from CONTENT menu
item.

On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 2:24 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have tried several times to get into Mantis today.  It's not unusual for
> me not to get in.  I will use "send a comment" in the future.
>
> 1. There's no "Joe" example in the HAnim 2 Standards or Annexes.  As you
> say, Joe doesn't doesn't match current standards.
>
> 2. There is a "Joe" example in the archives:
>
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html
>
> 3. I haven't mastered Textures yet.  Waiting for integration with
> Stability.AI, midJourney, etc.  Yes, I'm aware of Text-to-Video and Imagen
> Videos. I also know that there may be Video-to-X3D (recommendations? I've
> only done my face so far--not a texture.). Yes, I've used variations on a
> fragment shader.
>
> 4.  I'm a bit leary of recording video around the house, maybe I can do
> some while I am walking!
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 1:44 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
>> John, the mantis issue includes two examples already.
>>
>> A. The first by Joe uses "skin" field with a Shape (illegal according to
>> spec), rather than geometry node only (as specified by X3D spec).  That is
>> why his example is able to use textures, and that approach seems
>> appropriate for X3D4.
>>
>> B. The second Korean-student example uses "skeleton" field with
>> descendant HAnimSegment nodes containing Shape geometry.  That is a
>> different approach, long valid, with similar visual effects as "skin"
>> geometry.
>>
>> If you have another example that you want to propose for X3D Example
>> archives, we are always happy to review and consider together on mailing
>> list.  Thanks for your scrutiny and development efforts.
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics
>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 5, 2022 11:25:03 AM
>> *To:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
>> *Cc:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <
>> x3d-public at web3d.org>; h-anim at web3d.org <h-anim at web3d.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions
>> have no way to assign textures
>>
>>
>> NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify before acting.
>>
>> Don, my comment was more about examples in HAnim 2 Standard Annex.   If
>> one wants to put an example with skin in the HAnim 2 annexes, that would be
>> great.  You have identified a problem with the body of the standard, I have
>> identified a problem with annex.
>>
>> I do not know a way to handle cases where there is an unmentioned field.
>> I haven’t checked Joe Kick yet.
>>
>> But yeah, conscientious attitudes are welcome too.   We’re playing the
>> long game.   I feel very bad about not being able to read everything.
>>
>> A skin field is welcome!  I will add to Mantis.
>>
>> CFE?
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:08 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Hi John.  We use Mantis for tracking possible issues in the
>> specifications.
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem in the X3D4 specification appears to be that there is no way
>> to assign textures to skin geometry.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Mantis issue (copied into this email) also proposes a solution that
>> fixes the problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>>
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
>> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, December 4, 2022 9:37 PM
>> *To:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
>> *Cc:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <
>> x3d-public at web3d.org>; h-anim at web3d.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions
>> have no way to assign textures
>>
>>
>>
>> There is no derivation that i see.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 11:33 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Don, I did notice  that there were no skins on an HAnim Motion 2
>> example.  I will check the repository again tomorrow.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is Joe Kick ok?
>>
>>
>>
>> Do HAnim nodes derive from some Shape type?
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 6:14 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Joe and I were working with various HAnim models today (using X3D-Edit!)
>> and found an important problem.no
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproblem.no%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C6c5c6822e4d04c6927b408dad6f670f1%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638058651195496943%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gLQE6TWzlpmxxlJhg3ty39uHP9YeLuwaR5x%2Bfqs0WV0%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    - Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign
>>    textures
>>    - https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1410
>>
>>
>>
>> HAnimHAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures
>> because Shape nodes are not currently allowed in the X3D4 parent-child node
>> hierarchy.
>>
>> * X3D4 Architecture, HAnim component, 26.3.2 HAnimHumanoid
>> *
>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimHumanoid
>>
>> Relevant field is
>>   MFNode [in,out] skin [] [IndexedFaceSet, IndexedFanSet, IndexedQuadSet,
>> IndexedTriangleSet, IndexedTriangleStripSet]
>>
>> It is possible to assign color values, through use of Color or ColorRGBA
>> nodes within IndexedFaceSet, for example. However, because Shape is not
>> permitted, there is no way to assign corresponding Appearance with either
>> Material or ImageTexture.
>>
>>
>>
>> The following example shows animated skin with a texture, playable in
>> X_ITE (and X3DOM and BSContact) players.
>>
>> * X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Joe Kick
>> *
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html
>>
>> Excerpt:
>> <Shape DEF='Joe_Shape' containerField='skin'>
>>   <Appearance DEF='Joe_skin_Appearance'>
>>     <Material DEF='Joe_skin_Material' diffuseColor='0.3 0.3 0.6'
>> emissiveColor='0.3 0.3 0.6'/>
>>     <ImageTexture DEF='JoeSkinImageTexture'
>>   url=' "JoeBodyTexture29.png" "
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeBodyTexture29.png"
>>  '/>
>>     <!-- ROUTE information for KickTextureTransform node: [from
>> SkinInterpolator.value_changed to rotation ] -->
>>     <TextureTransform DEF='KickTextureTransform'/>
>>   </Appearance>
>>   <IndexedFaceSet DEF='Joe_skin_IndexedFaceSet' etc.
>>      <Coordinate DEF='Joe_SkinCoord' point= etc.
>>      <TextureCoordinate point='0 0 0.5 0.5 0.5 0 0 0.5'/>
>>   </IndexedFaceSet>
>> </Shape>
>>
>>
>>
>> HAnim specification says
>>
>> * HAnim specification version 2 volume 1, 6 Object interfaces, 6.2
>> Humanoid
>> *
>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid
>>
>> sequence<Object> skin [] *[indexed mesh objects as defined by the
>> representation]*
>>
>>
>>
>> An example “representation" for HAnim is X3D.
>>
>> Possible fix:
>> a. Allow Shape node, in addition to IndexedFaceSet etc. (Matching Joe's
>> example)
>> b. Note in the X3D4 specification prose that such a Shape node must
>> contain one of those same nodes (IFS, ITS etc.).  That will allow identical
>> geometry capabilities that are currently clearly defined.
>>
>>
>>
>> Note that the animated Korean characters did not display such a problem
>> because they are apparently textures are part of HAnimSegment that is
>> animated, which is part of skeleton field hierarchy, and not part of skin
>> field.  For example,
>>
>>    - X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Jin LOA 4
>>    - Articulated 3D game character designed with a general graphics
>>    tool, then converted into an X3D HAnim model.
>>    -
>>    https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JinLOA4Index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> We recommend
>>
>>    - Taking a generous view of HAnim2 wording “*[indexed mesh objects as
>>    defined by the representation]”*
>>    - to allow identical usage of a Shape node, thus ensuring that
>>    textures are possible on animated human skin.
>>    - Such an approach is already demonstrated in our examples, so it is
>>    feasible and expected.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely yours, Joe and Don.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>>
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
>> faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> x3d-public mailing list
>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>
>>
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