[x3d-public] Focus on HAnim nodes, not shape geometry.

[John Carlson]

What this means to me is, we can compute standardized HAnimHumanoid with a
combination of standard for most nodes, and a rescaled HAnimHumanoid model
found in JinLOA4.x3d for hands and feet.  Or are we replacing standard
measurements?

Please verify that JinLOA4.x3d has LOA4 hands and feet.  I may misremember.

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 7:26 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:

> Joe, box is 2x2x2 defaulted, afaik.
>
> I’m thinking of providing a function like
>
> HAnimHumanoid.applyTransform(Transform) to SAI.  I haven’t figured which
> SAI yet.   The scale in the Transform will change the scale of the Humanoid
> to 1.87, 1.87, 1.87.  The translation in the Humanoid will bring the origin
> and centers such that the origin is between the feet.
>
> How i will change the other transforms and shapes, I don’t quite
> understand yet.   We tried something that didn’t work.   I understand that
> you want to get rid of defaulted transforms, and there are defaulted
> transforms for HAnim named nodes found in X3DUOM.
>
> What i think this means is i will have to pull all the HAnim default
> measurements from X3DUOM, HAnim 2.0 standard, or some other source, like
> x3d.py or X3DJSAIL, which pull from X3DUOM.  While we have a lot of these
> measurements in those places, I think we still need someone to pull out
> measurements from either the scene in question (I don’t know if all the
> measurements are there, we need to check), another scene, or measure them
> ourselves in the standard.
>
> That is, either the data should provide the measurements (particularly
> hands and feet), or the standards.
>
> I think your goal of taking the hands and feet measurements out of the
> scene is good, we will also need to pull measurements out of the standard,
> X3DUOM or SAI that are present, so we can do our multiplication properly,
> and the higher nodes must influence lower nodes.
>
> I already have a skeleton which pulls most of the measurements for the
> skeleton from the standard via scraped files.
>
> So we can continue using a scene to pull out HAnim measurements, as long
> as the measurements are there.
>
> May i suggest that we continue by ignoring shape geometry and focusing on
> HAnim nodes?  Once we have defaults for HAnim nodes, we transfer to
> standard, X3DUOM, etc.  then we can rescrape, and hopefully create an
> appropriate Humanoid.
>
> We have verified that JinLOA4.x3d has all nodes in hierarchy.   The
> measurements in JinLOA4.x3d do not yet meet the standard, AFAIK.
>
> Thanks!
>
> John
>
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 6:18 PM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>    - Understood, Joe!
>>
>>
>>
>> Fine. Are you sure you see how we drew that part of a box? The
>> coordinates of the points and how to make triangles?
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a default 0 0 0 for the root scene. You are not really supposed
>> to draw in this space but recommended to have a Group or Transform to hold
>> geometry. If I say Transform defaults, Shape Box defaults then I get a box
>> 1x1x1 centered at 0 0 0 in ancestor space so the thing should be hanging
>> there around the middle of the scene. For other standard shapes, when the
>> user asks for a cone, he will expect standard cone, but a cone that is not
>> carefully specced out but will probably consist of about what 20 to 50
>> points. If the user wants more detail or less points then it is fairly easy
>> diyofs in basic IFS user code.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Saturday, April 22, 2023 6:35 PM
>> *To: *Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> *Cc: *GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>; X3D Graphics public mailing list
>> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] Tessellation…convert to IFS?
>>
>>
>>
>> Understood, Joe!  My issue is what do we do with sphere coordinates when
>> transforms are multiplied out and deleted?   It would seem natural to
>> replace non-coordinate shapes with some kind of shape set, whether indexed
>> or not (X3D JSON to STL code does this). Especially something where
>> triangles must share edges.  So yes, in the case of Sphere, Box and other
>> non-coordinate shapes, the user code should change.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the solution may be to retain lowest level transforms in the
>> scene in order to maintain shapes like spheres, cones, cylinders, etc.  in
>> user code.   Then, do we need to apply the transforms to geometry?
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe,  it seems like you’re leaning towards changing the shape user code
>> to sets?  This is getting  more and more like X3D JSON to STL, we just need
>> to support different output formats and additional shapes.  Should we
>> translate to glTF instead of STL?
>>
>>
>>
>> Doug, this is primarily to produce a standardized human model.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 7:03 PM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Also note there are several ways to represent a shape in x3d. If the name
>> includes Indexed then the user code includes the coordinates for the points
>> and the sets of coordindex numbers that tell the browser how to make the
>> triangles.
>>
>> Some styles of shapes do not require the user to supply coordIndex, then
>> the points are default auto-indexed into triangles by a standardized
>>  formula depending on name and included user code for points.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, when you say shape Sphere then the browser encodes that depending on
>> its internal spec sphere.
>>
>> You can see the result in a browser that can just show the points or
>> triangles of the shape sphere otherwise it will appear as a solid but the
>> details of the actual coordinates of points and tessellation (indexing) of
>> those points will not appear in the user code because what does the user
>> care about what the browser uses to create your Sphere? .
>>
>>
>>
>> So, for the default shape Box, probably uses two triangles per side.
>>
>> I think there is x3d Shape user code to present a box in both indexed and
>> auto-indexed form.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is classic-style user code with lots of defaults for one side of a
>> box.
>>
>>
>>
>> DEF boxfront Shape {
>>
>>   appearance Appearance {
>>
>>     material Material { }
>>
>>     texture ImageTexture {
>>
>>       url [ "textures/boxfront.jpg" ]
>>
>>     }
>>
>>   }
>>
>>   geometry IndexedFaceSet {
>>
>>     coordIndex [ 0 1 2 3 -1 ]
>>
>>     coord Coordinate {
>>
>>       point [ -1 -1 1, 1 -1 1, 1 1 1, -1 1 1 ]
>>
>>     }
>>
>>     texCoordIndex [ 0 1 2 3 -1 ]
>>
>>     texCoord TextureCoordinate {
>>
>>       point [ 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 ]
>>
>>     }
>>
>>   }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Saturday, April 22, 2023 2:33 PM
>> *To: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] Tessellation…convert to IFS?
>>
>>
>>
>> Depends what you're doing. Assuming you're starting with a point cloud,
>> if you're tessellating something almost flat, and with irregular points,
>> then you can use something like Delaunay algorithm to optimize the edges
>> between points to give triangles that are more equi-angular.
>>
>> If you are on a 3D dimensional surface, but know its close to being
>> convex -- like a sphere or cube -- then you can move the planar math around
>> a spherical center, and crop points in the distance / on the other side of
>> center when triangulating.
>>
>> Or you can remove and add points from a pre-triangulated sphere (I just
>> made this up). Looking orthogonally at an existing triangle on your sphere,
>> add a point from your point cloud, to the appropriate triangle, based on
>> its yaw and pitch, or latitude, longitude, while ignoring its
>> radius/height. When you have all your points added, then start removing the
>> sphere's points. After each step of adding (or removing sphere points at
>> the end), do Delaunay recursive triangle swaps on the local plane.
>>
>> Or ask ChatGPT - it might know.
>>
>> -Doug
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 3:05 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> When one is tessellating a shape, like Box, is it typical to convert to
>> IFS?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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