[x3d-public] missing centers for the HAnim joints

Sun Jun 4 09:32:51 PDT 2023

Joe and John, thanks for careful consideration of additional values.

First, seeking to understand: are you talking about table values for the following, which at first glance already appears to be complete?

*	Table A.10 — LOA‑4: Suggested Joint objects center values
*	https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LevelOfArticulationFour

Meanwhile there are indeed values missing from

*	X3D 4.0 XML Schema Documentation, simpleType hanimJointNameValues
*	https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dSchemaDocumentation4.0/x3d-4.0.html#LinkB6

and

*	HAnim2 default values for Joint and Site (feature point) nodes
*	Total hanimJointNameValues enumeration elements missing default values: 59 (out of 146 total)
*	https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/HAnim2DefaultValuesJointsFeaturePoints.txt

Given identification of additional suggested values, when you think they are correct and ready, we can

a.	Add an example model to the archives which illustrates these additional default values,
b.	Update X3D XML Schema (and X3DUOM, X3DJSAIL, X3DPSAIL, X3D Tooltips) to include the added values,
c.	Create a Mantis issue to formally add the agreed-upon values to future versions of HAnim2 and X3D4 specifications.

p.s. hope you find that missing toe!  :0

all the best, Don

-- 

Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        brutzman at nps.edu

Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149

X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman

From: Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net> 
Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2023 8:54 AM
To: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>; Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Subject: RE: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 2 June 2023:

Yes, John, can you send me your latest rescaled joint centers?

As for the geometry, see that original structure is drawn as:  

world coordinate system

Humanoid scale 0.025 0.025 0.025 

…

 Joint center x y z

   Segment 

    Geometry translation x y z 

     IFS … x y z, …

… 

So the centers and geometry x y z coordinates are drawn in some arbitrary space about 40 or so times bigger than default humanoid space, same as default world coordinate system, then the centers and geometry are scaled in the Humanoid node to be drawn into default humanoid space. Each IFS segment geometry is drawn in some location in same coordinate space as original joint centers then translated into position. 

As you begin to accomplish more complex motions and detailed interactions you will find that you wish you had just drawn the thing directly in default Humanoid space. Sure the tool can do a lot of this for you but I think you will find In general, it will be easier and less guessing If you are using default Humanoid space (1 unit  = one meter) than another arbitrary coordinate system because then you can define your work in realistic space with realistic measurements. 

So, to tune this otherwise fine example into default Humanoid space, the first step is to rescale the joint centers to default skeleton space, same as default Humanoid space. The rescaled skeleton should be drawn facing +z with 0 0 0 at the floor between the feet and +Y up. 

Next, for the segment geometry. Each IFS is drawn in the original coordinate space, scaled by the values in the Humanoid node scale value, then is contained in a transform with translation to move the IFS to the appropriate location. So the IFS is drawn in the same coordinate space as the joint center then the transform translation moves the IFS from where it was drawn to the correct location in Segment space, which is the same as joint center space. 

But Joint center space has been rescaled to draw the model skeleton directly in default Humanoid space.

So since we wish to draw the ifs directly in skeleton space the first step is to rescale the ifs. Same as Joint center operation, each coordinate times scale factor. Next we get rid of the translation, same as joint center and ifs rescaling, then finally, translate the rescaled ifs by the rescaled translation values. 

Then the geometry should be in default Humanoid space, default skeleton space, and defalult segment space. 

Now the user code structure is: 

world coordinate system

Humanoid scale 1 1 1 

…

 Joint center x’ y’ z’ (where the ‘ = standard Humanoid space)

   Segment 

    Geometry translation 0 0 0

     IFS … x’ y’ z’, …

… 

Everything will work better when the author can use direct realistic measurements to develop behaviors and interactions with other models and realistic environments. 

Thanks,

Joe

From: John Carlson <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, June 2, 2023 1:10 PM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> 
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> 
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 2 June 2023:

Correction, centers for hands and feet, minus one toe!

John

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 3:05 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com> > wrote:

I’d like to say that I completed the missing centers for the HAnim joints, and this got translated from JinLOA4… to my scene with sites and segments.  Joe has looked at the centers, and is anxious to get them installed in schema and object model.

The next step is to get geometry scaling working followed by incorporation into schema and object model.

I need additional assistance with HAnim geometry scaling if someone want to try it.  I’m using some form of JinLOA4.x3d.

John

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 12:10 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> > wrote:

Attendees: Anita Havele, Nicholas Polys, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman.

Here are our minutes for this week – steady progress in multiple directions.  All participation in our weekly meetings is welcome.

1.   Participation.  The X3D Working Group meets weekly on Fridays 09-1000 Pacific on Web3D Consortium zoom channel.  Telcon information:

*     https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fus02web.zoom.us%2Fj%2F81634670698%3Fpwd%3Da1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GokFEUg1kg223pIlyw1acAfe3GWRDtMfNxgj%2BPXrGe8%3D&reserved=0>  

*     https://zoom.us/j/148206572 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzoom.us%2Fj%2F148206572&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=a84efvN7CFuhLnmaI2%2Ffd5PIBcM%2BvXhQdPEinvfUlro%3D&reserved=0>   Password 483805 

*     https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information 

1.   X3D 2023 goals.  Our primary activities for X3D Working Group in 2023 are focused on broad and correct deployment.

a.   Encourage consistent rendering, interaction and usage for the many tremendous capabilities in X3D4.

b.   Update ISO specifications and implementations for multiple programming languages and file encodings to match X3D4.

2.   SIGGRAPH 2023 and Web3D 2023 conference planning updates

Continuing discussion on activities, dates, times, participation, and plans.

*     SIGGRAPH 2023, Los Angeles, 6-10 August

*     https://s2023.siggraph.org <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KQ%2B0PCHtpg4WMkqWZ5hzBnjE0AD9LmRVp6arGgAV0Wk%3D&reserved=0> 

Summary of Web3D events:

*     Celebrate 50 Years of SIGGRAPH Conferences with Web3D Consortium

*     https://www.web3d.org/event/web3d-siggraph-2023

Out of many topics, three Birds of a Feather (BOF) sessions are planned showing Web3D capabilities.

*     https://s2023.siggraph.org/program/birds-of-a-feather <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2Fprogram%2Fbirds-of-a-feather&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lTmBk%2FQ%2BmPLyWrwy58zqJ9g4a91jZ8ToC3068iVkiLY%3D&reserved=0> 

*     https://s2023.siggraph.org/full-program/?filter1=sstype149 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2Ffull-program%2F%3Ffilter1%3Dsstype149&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YZHSphQF1rWngVOhtimYZUjz5R0YbEGleg5fEWg9tVs%3D&reserved=0> 

Cartographic Visualization BOF

*     Monday, August 7, Noon - 1:30 PM in the ACM SIGGRAPH Village Theater.

*     ACM SIGGRAPH Cartographic (Carto) Visualization Bird of a Feather (BOF) session will highlight the future of digital mapping to support our daily lives. Presenters will demonstrate various solutions for interactive cartographic display and international mapping.

X3D4 is Web3D Ready - A major upgrade to the Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics

*        Monday, 7 August 2023 - 3:00 PM  - 4:30 PM Pacific

*        Join us and learn more on how X3D4 has evolved to support current 3D technologies. X3D4 provides close support for the HTML5 Recommendation, Khronos glTF Physically Based Rendering (PBR), and Web Audio API.

*        X3D4 is the basis of multiple file encodings and programming language bindings. The X3D4 Architecture Specification is Web ready, used in many 3D applications, highly mature, implemented, functionally complete, and undergoing final editorial review for International Standards Organization (ISO).

3D Web Interoperability for the Metaverse

*        Tuesday, 8 August 2023 - 1:00 PM - 3:00 PM Pacific

*        To make the Metaverse fully interoperable with the WWW and the Standards ecosystem we need new Metaverse capabilities. Join us in discussions on how to enable robust patterns for interoperable content authoring and delivery workflows across the Web and now to flourish on a strong foundation of Visual graphics, Interface capabilities, Web Architecture and Compression/streaming technologies.

*        Topics include formation and next steps for 3D Web Interoperability Exploratory Group at Metaverse Standards Forum (MSF) https://metaverse-standards.org <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmetaverse-standards.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UX7UTA7SH%2F%2BVW0IKQKUSDyHLqB8nlVrdkYhCVcbG%2ByE%3D&reserved=0> 

*     Web3D 2023 Conference

*     Vicomtech San Sebastian Spain, 9-11 October

*     https://web3d.siggraph.org <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uSvkRMgjHBvK6NvwA5jxJq6lzrcgeAgwb%2B%2B1tPgp%2Bjw%3D&reserved=0> 

*     https://web3d.siggraph.org/cfp <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2Fcfp&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=g87gig5%2FsBT5iuWAMtAVnQsda2jYJ4Xf1cQ7vkpQ40U%3D&reserved=0> 

*     Towards interconnectivity of Metaverses

*     The purpose of the 28th International ACM Conference on 3D Web Technology (Web3D 2023) is to study and share the principles and the latest advancements in connected 3D universes. Provide navigation metaphors that allow users to move seamlessly from one virtual world to another.

*     The goal of the conference and of the Web3D community, which has a rich history of developing technologies that enable the creation, transmission, access, interaction, sharing, and visualization of 3D universes. Bringing together a diverse group of individuals to share innovative and influential thoughts on how the metaverse can revolutionize the future of communications. This includes topics such as 3D applications and services accessible through a wide range of devices, from simple mobile phones to more complex systems such as AR/VR headsets, and heavily populated virtual worlds, especially those connected through high-speed, low-latency networks.

Main important dates:

*  Paper Submission: June 15th, 2023

*  Notification of acceptance: July 27th, 2023

*  Final paper version: August 13th, 2023

*  Competition Submission: September 8, 2023

*  Conference dates: October 9th to 11th, 2023

3.   INCITS and ISO Planning.

Quarterly meeting next week.  Updates sent.  We have recommended that INCITS supports the further participation of MSF in ISO JTC-1 SC24.

4.   MSF progress and planning.  Description of 3D Web Interoperability above is helpful, we are using it.  More details at SIGGRAPH and when the draft charter being produced by Exploratory Group goes public at MSF.

5.   HAnim working group is making excellent progress, we had a several-hour meeting yesterday focused on IEEE 3D body processing and fashion issues.

*        Access to HAnim working group meetings is for members, as are minutes and hanim mailing list.  Thus all conversations are in confidence and respect the Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) of unpublished materials by other organizations.  Please see HAnim Working Group charter for details.

https://www.web3d.org/working-groups/humanoid-animation-hanim

*        Products of this working group, including (most) tools and schemas and references to published IEEE standards (for example) are all public.

Have fun with X3D!  8)

all the best, Don

-- 

Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> 

Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149

X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman

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