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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ok let me meditate on it and reread the core concepts germane to
the issue;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have gone in and out of this topic over the years. It was
fresher in my mind when building the Player support for it way back when. Then I
would forget, then someone would report a nasty bug around it. Then I would
forget again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Something to do with needing to define when a node is in the “visible”
scene graph (can’t remember if there’s an actual concept for that
in the Concepts sections), and then tying that concept to when a sensor goes
active and/or how its bounding boxes are dealt with. I think this would also be
true for ProximitySensors.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Heh: what about Script nodes? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Richard F. Puk
[mailto:puk@igraphics.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tony Parisi; 'Russ Kinter'; x3d-public@web3d.org; 'vrml'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'FreeWRL X3D/VRML Viewer'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [X3D-Public] [WWW-Vrml] VisibilitySensor in LOD Level
Browser Tests<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi, Tony and/or Russ –<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>How about submitting a spec comment with proposed text?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> -- Dick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>/******************************************<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>| Richard F. Puk, Ph.D., President<br>
| Intelligraphics Incorporated<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>| 7644 Cortina Court, Carlsbad, CA 92009-8206<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>| Tel: +1-760-753-9027 Cell:
+1-760-809-9027<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>| E-mail: puk@igraphics.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>| Web: http://www.igraphics.com/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>\******************************************<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org [mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Tony Parisi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Russ Kinter; x3d-public@web3d.org; vrml<br>
<b>Cc:</b> FreeWRL X3D/VRML Viewer<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [X3D-Public] [WWW-Vrml] VisibilitySensor in LOD Level
Browser Tests<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Yes, exactly: the only way to hack around the problem is to
essentially build your own Switches and LODs by stringing together
ProximitySensors and maybe PROTOs to hide the details. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>So, if we can get everyone to agree this is the way to do it,
it’s just a spec issue. I maintain that the spec is too vague about this
issue and could use some more language<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Russ Kinter
[mailto:pyth7@verizon.net] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 22, 2009 1:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tony Parisi; x3d-public@web3d.org; 'vrml'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'FreeWRL X3D/VRML Viewer'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [WWW-Vrml] VisibilitySensor in LOD Level Browser Tests<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Hi Tony,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Thanks for your very quick response.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I would like to add that I think my interpretation is more than
reasonable, because it makes good economic sense.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Any interpretation other than what Xj3D and Contact uses forces the
developer to add a ProximitySensor into the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>scene to turn off the animation -resulting in a duplication of
effort because the LOD already tracks the user.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>The LOD/VisibilitySensor tandem combo is elegant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Thanks again,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Russ Kinter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Tony Parisi
[mailto:tparisi@vivaty.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Russ Kinter; x3d-public@web3d.org; vrml<br>
<b>Cc:</b> FreeWRL X3D/VRML Viewer<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [WWW-Vrml] VisibilitySensor in LOD Level Browser Tests</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi Russ<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I believe this. Vivaty Player doesn’t cull out sensors if
their boxes aren’t part of the active scene graph. It’s never been
clear to me—nor explicit in the spec—as to what the correct
behavior is supposed to be for a sensor that is switched out of a Switch or
LOD. It would be nice to get some clarifying language in the spec someday.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>But your interpretation is totally reasonable. Sorry if we came
down on the wrong side of it :-o I promise you it was motivated purely by the
desire to keep an already complicated implementation as simple as we could. But
I could certainly be talked into changing this in the future.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Tony<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
www-vrml-bounces@web3d.org [mailto:www-vrml-bounces@web3d.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Russ
Kinter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 22, 2009 1:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> x3d-public@web3d.org; 'vrml'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'FreeWRL X3D/VRML Viewer'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [WWW-Vrml] VisibilitySensor in LOD Level Browser Tests<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I
have been doing some testing of including a VisibilitySensor as a member of the
first level of the LOD Node to control an animation. The idea is that the
animation won’t start until the animated geometry appears in the range of
the LOD.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The
VisibilitySensor is grouped with this geometry.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The
results work similar to a ProximitySensor. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This
method should work according to “The Annotated VRML 97 Reference
Manual” at <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><a
href="http://www.cs.vu.nl/~eliens/documents/vrml/reference/CH3.HTM#VisibilitySensor">http://www.cs.vu.nl/~eliens/documents/vrml/reference/CH3.HTM#VisibilitySensor</a>
:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>“If
<i>enabled</i> is TRUE, the VisibilitySensor node detects changes to the
visibility status of the box specified and sends events through the <i>isActive</i>
eventOut. A TRUE event is output to <i>isActive</i> when any portion of the box
impacts the rendered view. A FALSE event is sent when the box has no effect on
the view. Browsers shall guarantee that, if <i>isActive</i> is FALSE, the box
has absolutely no effect on the rendered view. Browsers may err liberally when <i>isActive</i>
is TRUE. For example, the box may affect the rendering.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>If
the VisibilitySensor as a member of a LOD level is currently out of range that
means its box is NOT impacting the rendered view, so its isActive output should
be FALSE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This
test world: <a
href="http://www.sevenemeraldtablets.net/VisibilityTest/VisibilityTest2.wrl">http://www.sevenemeraldtablets.net/VisibilityTest/VisibilityTest2.wrl</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>however
shows mixed results for various browsers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>There
is a HUD display of the VisibilitySensor and TimeSensor activity. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The
transparent red cube is both the VisibilitySensor’s box and LOD range
boundary. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Xj3D
and Contact get it right! kudos!.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Vivaty
does initially, but if the user enters box/LOD level and turns on the animation
and then leaves the range<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Vivaty
won’t switch off the animation, so the LOD is ignored after the
VisibilitySensor is activated. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The
VisibilitySensor seems to work as it should otherwise. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>InstantPlayer
fails in that it will not shut off the VisibilitySensor when it is out of the
LOD range.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The
LOD has no affect on it and is ignored. The VisibilitySensor works as it should
otherwise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>CosmoPlayer
does the opposite of Vivaty. It makes the VisibilitySensor active on load, but
once the viewer enters the range<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>and
leaves, then the test works just like it should.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>FreeWRL
works initially, but once the LOD range is entered and the VisibiltySensor is
activated, then the VisibiltySensor<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>isActive
TRUE no matter what –even when the red box is out of sight and out of
mind.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Clicking
on the cones to change viewpoints FreeWRL puts the user at the wrong
coordinates. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Cortona
5.1 fails completely. The VisibilitySensor isActive TRUE no matter what -even
if the user is completely turned away.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>OctagaPlayer
fails too in exactly the same way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thanks!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Russ
Kinter</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"All
the fires of Cain's motivation cannot burn a love that's sound." - Stacy
Sutherland</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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