<html><head><base href="x-msg://46/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>What application layer standard would you use? XMPP? HTTP? IRC? What standardization is there above the application level? Jingle, HTML, X3D, and VRML. I think you're asking to standardize languages, like Lojban or something similar.</div><div><br></div><div>John<br><div><div>On May 2, 2010, at 2:50 AM, Christoph Valentin wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div link="blue" lang="EN-US" vlink="blue" style="margin-top: 0pt; margin-right: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0pt; padding-top: 0pt; padding-right: 0pt; padding-bottom: 0pt; padding-left: 0pt; ">Thanks for the technical hints.<br><br>And yes: if I were important, I would second your statement that a standardized protocol/interface between client and server would be an asset for X3D.<br><br>However, commercial companies usually do<br> - what the customer wants<br> - what is the cheapest<br>(in this order)<br><br>And as long as the customers (i.e. content authors) do not insist in a standardized protocol, there won't be a standardized protocol.<br><br>it's that easy, imho. Please correct me, if I'm not aware of some details of the X3D history, since I'm more or less a newbie.<br><blockquote type="cite"><p>-------- Original-Nachricht --------<br>Datum: Sun, 02 May 2010 02:05:20 -0400<br>Von: "Russ Kinter" <<a href="mailto:pyth7@verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a>><br>An: "'Christoph Valentin'" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>><br>CC: "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>Betreff: RE: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)<br><br></p><div class="Section1"><div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "></span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="border-top-width: medium; border-right-width: medium; border-bottom-width: medium; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 4pt; "><div><div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></font></strong><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Christoph Valentin [mailto:<a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at]</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><strong><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, May 01, 2010 6:37 AM<br><strong><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a><br><strong><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Cc:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org">X3D-Public@web3d.org</a><br><strong><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)</span></font></p><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "></span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">> As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">> (i.e. Free as in free client AND server)</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br>Unfortunately, I like the Network Sensor concept (due to its generality), and don't forget:<font color="navy"><span style="color: navy; "></span></font></span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br>* An X3D viewer is not required to support Java (either Internal in a Script node or external)<font color="navy"><span style="color: navy; "></span></font></span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br>* An X3D viewer is required to support ECMAScript in the Script node - if the viewer supports the Script node<br>* An X3D viewer is not required to support external SAI with ECMAScript<br>(I copied these sentences from another forum, Author: Leonard Daly)<br><br>When I use network sensors, it's possible to implement rather complex MU animations/simulations just using<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="GramE">ECMAScript, without being dependent on the SAI/EAI.</span></span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">[Russ Kinter]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span> </span>It’s called cascading.</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">One event from the network has the capability of triggering many animations<span class="GramE">..</span></span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">EAI when it is done properly is exactly the same way.</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">You instance a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node and I instance a proto that is acquired by the Java. In both our cases it is the ECMA script that does most of the work in terms of animations.</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">You are dependent on the X3D browser implementing<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node to communicate to the server and I am dependent on a Java Socket and thread. We are both dependent on some extra feature to talk to the network.</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">The difference is with EAI can do far more - I can communicate with other Java programs.</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">For example since Instant Player won’t play mp3 files I found an open-source Java program that can and after writing a faux-Sound Node I can play mp3 and other audio formats not supported by any X3D browser in a world.</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">As far as the “mandatory” issue goes, I don’t think the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is mandatory either at least when I search</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; "><a href="http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/">http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/</a></span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><span class="GramE"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">it</span></font></em></strong></span><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>can’t be found. So I suggest both means of talking to the network are<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font></em></strong><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">optional</span></font></em></strong><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">.</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">Don’t get me wrong the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node is -or rather- was a great idea until its protocol was allowed to be made proprietary. God forbid profits should be missed out on because some amateurs could possibly write an MU system using the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node. For me the whole proprietary protocol issue makes a sham out of claims of the spec being open-source.</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">Riddle me this: What is part of an open-source spec but isn’t itself open-source?</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">Russ Kinter</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; "></span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font></em></strong><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">-------- Original-<span class="SpellE">Nachricht</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>--------<br>Datum: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:10:05 -0500 (CDT)<br>Von:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a><br>An:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a><br>CC:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org">X3D-Public@web3d.org</a><br>Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">>is there something else in the standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">To the best of my knowledge no -not as a standard per se.</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">However some people have done interesting MU stuff with php:</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><a href="http://www.x-robot.com/">http://www.x-robot.com/</a><br><a href="http://3dchat.3d-check.com/">http://3dchat.3d-check.com/</a></span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Paul Aslin has something similar as well -it may be the 3dchat link.</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">(i.e. Free as in free client AND server)</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Russ Kinter</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Apr 30, 2010 04:23:34 PM,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de537344352.1272709485.54f3f8ca&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-width: medium; border-right-width: medium; border-bottom-width: medium; border-left-width: 2.25pt; border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Dear all<br><br>I did some private (hobby) studies regarding multiuser mode and rather complex scenes (combining content from different authors) and would like to ask, if you could second my experiences,<br><br>or if somebody disagrees (the whole project is documented at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://simulrr.wordpress.com).">http://simulrr.wordpress.com).</a><br><br>See below<br><br>I am aware of Network Sensor and DIS, is there something else in the standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?<br><br>Thanks in advance<br>Christoph</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt; ">BS Contact<div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Supported from the beginning of the project. Multi-user-mode with and BS Collaborate definitively possible.</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt; ">Octaga<div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Supported from spring 2009 onwards. Multi-user-mode with theoretically possible, but no free test version of collaboration server available -> multi-user-mode cannot be supported currently.</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt; ">Instant Reality<div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">First trials positive. Yet unknown, whether Network Sensor node is supported or not. According to X3D-public mailing list an open source multi-user-framework exists (to be analysed).</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt; ">Free WRL<div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">First trials show, that is not supported → postponed.</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt; ">Xj3D<div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">First trials show, that Xj3D has problems with nested prototypes → postponed.</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt; ">Vivaty<div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Not available AFAIK</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt; ">SwirlX3D<div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">First trials not un-positive, but show up problems with viewpoints in prototypes, proximity sensors in prototypes etc. → postponed</span></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "></span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="border-top-width: medium; border-right-width: medium; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-left-width: medium; border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: solid; border-left-style: none; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 2pt; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-bottom: 12pt; border-top-width: medium; border-right-width: medium; border-bottom-width: medium; border-left-width: medium; border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-color: initial; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "></span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "></span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br><br><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><a href="http://GMX.at">GMX.at</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>- Österreichs FreeMail-Dienst mit über 2 Mio Mitgliedern<br>E-Mail, SMS & mehr! 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