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Thanks for the technical hints.<br /><br />And yes: if I were important, I would second your statement that a standardized protocol/interface between client and server would be an asset for X3D.<br /><br />However, commercial companies usually do<br /> - what the customer wants<br /> - what is the cheapest<br />(in this order)<br /><br />And as long as the customers (i.e. content authors) do not insist in a standardized protocol, there won't be a standardized protocol.<br /><br />it's that easy, imho. Please correct me, if I'm not aware of some details of the X3D history, since I'm more or less a newbie.<br /><blockquote type="cite">
<p>-------- Original-Nachricht --------<br />Datum: Sun, 02 May 2010 02:05:20 -0400<br />Von: "Russ Kinter" <pyth7@verizon.net><br />An: "'Christoph Valentin'" <christoph.valentin@gmx.at><br />CC: "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <x3d-public@web3d.org><br />Betreff: RE: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)<br /><br /></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></strong><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Christoph Valentin [mailto:<a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at]</a> <br /><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></strong> Saturday, May 01, 2010 6:37 AM<br /><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></strong> <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a><br /><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></strong> <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org">X3D-Public@web3d.org</a><br /><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></strong> Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">> As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">> (i.e. Free as in free client AND server)
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br /> Unfortunately, I like the Network Sensor concept (due to its generality), and don't forget:<font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;">
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br /> * An X3D viewer is not required to support Java (either Internal in a Script node or external)<font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;">
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br /> * An X3D viewer is required to support ECMAScript in the Script node - if the viewer supports the Script node<br /> * An X3D viewer is not required to support external SAI with ECMAScript<br /> (I copied these sentences from another forum, Author: Leonard Daly)<br /><br /> When I use network sensors, it's possible to implement rather complex MU animations/simulations just using <span class="GramE">ECMAScript, without being dependent on the SAI/EAI.</span>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">[Russ Kinter] <span style=""> </span>It’s called cascading.
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">One event from the network has the capability of triggering many animations<span class="GramE">..</span>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">EAI when it is done properly is exactly the same way.
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">You instance a <span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span> Node and I instance a proto that is acquired by the Java. In both our cases it is the ECMA script that does most of the work in terms of animations.
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">You are dependent on the X3D browser implementing <span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span> Node to communicate to the server and I am dependent on a Java Socket and thread. We are both dependent on some extra feature to talk to the network.
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">The difference is with EAI can do far more - I can communicate with other Java programs.
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">For example since Instant Player won’t play mp3 files I found an open-source Java program that can and after writing a faux-Sound Node I can play mp3 and other audio formats not supported by any X3D browser in a world.
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">As far as the “mandatory” issue goes, I don’t think the <span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span> is mandatory either at least when I search
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><a href="http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/">http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/</a>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span class="GramE"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">it</span></font></em></strong></span><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"> can’t be found. So I suggest both means of talking to the network are </span></font></em></strong><strong><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">optional</span></font></em></strong><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">.
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Don’t get me wrong the <span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span> Node is -or rather- was a great idea until its protocol was allowed to be made proprietary. God forbid profits should be missed out on because some amateurs could possibly write an MU system using the <span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span> Node. For me the whole proprietary protocol issue makes a sham out of claims of the spec being open-source.
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Riddle me this: What is part of an open-source spec but isn’t itself open-source?
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong style=""><em style=""><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Russ Kinter
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">-------- Original-<span class="SpellE">Nachricht</span> --------<br /> Datum: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:10:05 -0500 (CDT)<br /> Von: <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a><br /> An: <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a><br /> CC: <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org">X3D-Public@web3d.org</a><br /> Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">>is there something else in the standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">However some people have done interesting MU stuff with php:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Paul Aslin has something similar as well -it may be the 3dchat link.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">(i.e. Free as in free client AND server)
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Russ Kinter
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Apr 30, 2010 04:23:34 PM, <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de537344352.1272709485.54f3f8ca&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a> wrote:
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dear all<br /><br /> I did some private (hobby) studies regarding multiuser mode and rather complex scenes (combining content from different authors) and would like to ask, if you could second my experiences,<br /><br /> or if somebody disagrees (the whole project is documented at <a href="http://simulrr.wordpress.com).">http://simulrr.wordpress.com).</a><br /><br /> See below<br /><br /> I am aware of Network Sensor and DIS, is there something else in the standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?<br /><br /> Thanks in advance<br /> Christoph
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">BS Contact
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Supported from the beginning of the project. Multi-user-mode with and BS Collaborate definitively possible.
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Octaga
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Supported from spring 2009 onwards. Multi-user-mode with theoretically possible, but no free test version of collaboration server available -> multi-user-mode cannot be supported currently.
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Instant Reality
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">First trials positive. Yet unknown, whether Network Sensor node is supported or not. According to X3D-public mailing list an open source multi-user-framework exists (to be analysed).
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Free WRL
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">First trials show, that is not supported → postponed.
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Xj3D
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">First trials show, that Xj3D has problems with nested prototypes → postponed.
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Vivaty
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Not available AFAIK
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">SwirlX3D
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">First trials not un-positive, but show up problems with viewpoints in prototypes, proximity sensors in prototypes etc. → postponed
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