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Seems like a 'user defined' protocol should have been a required
option, and<br>
a public version spec'ed out for anyone to implement. <br>
<br>
But I can see why no commercial player vendor would implement such, they<br>
need to increase their user-base, you do that by requiring your player.<br>
<br>
Hoping x3dom helps us all.<br>
<br>
Dave A<br>
<br>
Christoph Valentin wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:20100503180847.257180@gmx.net" type="cite"> Hi<br>
<br>
Do you address me?<br>
<br>
No, I dont't think about such details. I just mean a standardized
*interface* between client and server (that may comprise several
protocols, and if I interpret Russ's answer correctly, a standardized
interface existed, but has been abandoned).<br>
<br>
No, it's just because I see a use case, that *might* be realistic in
*some* future and that *could* pay off.<br>
<br>
Imagine, you are the provider of a multiuser scene and you have two
users, user A (let's call her Alice) and user B (let's call him Bob).<br>
<br>
You have found your favourite server operator, Alice wants to meet Bob
in your scene, but Alice prefers browser A and Bob prefers browser B.
The server supports only one of both browsers.<br>
<br>
Alice wants to meet Bob in your scene, but it is unfortunately
impossible :-(<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>-------- Original-Nachricht --------<br>
Datum: Sun, 2 May 2010 18:51:48 -0700<br>
Von: John Carlson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:john.carlson3@sbcglobal.net"><john.carlson3@sbcglobal.net></a><br>
An: X3D Graphics public mailing list <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>What application layer standard would you use? XMPP? HTTP?
IRC? What standardization is there above the application level?
Jingle, HTML, X3D, and VRML. I think you're asking to standardize
languages, like Lojban or something similar.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John<br>
<div>
<div>On May 2, 2010, at 2:50 AM, Christoph Valentin wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite"><span
style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;"
class="Apple-style-span">
<div style="margin: 0pt; padding: 0pt;" lang="EN-US">Thanks for
the technical hints.<br>
<br>
And yes: if I were important, I would second your statement that a
standardized protocol/interface between client and server would be an
asset for X3D.<br>
<br>
However, commercial companies usually do<br>
- what the customer wants<br>
- what is the cheapest<br>
(in this order)<br>
<br>
And as long as the customers (i.e. content authors) do not insist in a
standardized protocol, there won't be a standardized protocol.<br>
<br>
it's that easy, imho. Please correct me, if I'm not aware of some
details of the X3D history, since I'm more or less a newbie.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>-------- Original-Nachricht --------<br>
Datum: Sun, 02 May 2010 02:05:20 -0400<br>
Von: "Russ Kinter" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1619885838.1272909187.1479bea4&to=pyth7%40verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a>><br>
An: "'Christoph Valentin'" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1619885838.1272909187.1479bea4&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>><br>
CC: "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1619885838.1272909187.1479bea4&to=x3d-public%40web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>
Betreff: RE: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)<br>
<br>
</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></strong><font
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Christoph Valentin [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at]</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></strong><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, May 01, 2010 6:37 AM<br>
<strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></strong><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a><br>
<strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></strong><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org">X3D-Public@web3d.org</a><br>
<strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></strong><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode
(newbie question)</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">> As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the
most promise for low cost</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">> (i.e. Free as in free client AND server)</span></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
Unfortunately, I like the Network Sensor concept (due to its
generality), and don't forget:<font color="navy"><span
style="color: navy;"></span></font></span></font></p>
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* An X3D viewer is not required to support Java (either Internal in a
Script node or external)<font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></span></font></p>
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* An X3D viewer is required to support ECMAScript in the Script node -
if the viewer supports the Script node<br>
* An X3D viewer is not required to support external SAI with ECMAScript<br>
(I copied these sentences from another forum, Author: Leonard Daly)<br>
<br>
When I use network sensors, it's possible to implement rather complex
MU animations/simulations just using<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
class="GramE">ECMAScript, without being dependent on the SAI/EAI.</span></span></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">[Russ
Kinter]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span> </span>It’s
called cascading.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">One
event from the network has the capability of triggering many animations<span
class="GramE">..</span></span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">EAI
when it is done properly is exactly the same way.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">You
instance a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node
and I instance a proto that is acquired by the Java. In both our cases
it is the ECMA script that does most of the work in terms of animations.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">You
are dependent on the X3D browser implementing<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node to communicate to the
server and I am dependent on a Java Socket and thread. We are both
dependent on some extra feature to talk to the network.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">The
difference is with EAI can do far more - I can communicate with other
Java programs.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">For
example since Instant Player won’t play mp3 files I found an
open-source Java program that can and after writing a faux-Sound Node I
can play mp3 and other audio formats not supported by any X3D browser
in a world.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">As
far as the “mandatory” issue goes, I don’t think the<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is mandatory either at least
when I search</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/">http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/</a></span></font></em></strong></p>
<strong><em><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2">
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span
class="GramE"><strong><em><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">it</span></font></em></strong></span><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>can’t be found. So I suggest
both means of talking to the network are<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font></em></strong><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">optional</span></font></em></strong><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Don’t
get me wrong the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node
is -or rather- was a great idea until its protocol was allowed to be
made proprietary. God forbid profits should be missed out on because
some amateurs could possibly write an MU system using the<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node. For me the whole
proprietary protocol issue makes a sham out of claims of the spec being
open-source.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Riddle
me this: What is part of an open-source spec but isn’t itself
open-source?</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Russ
Kinter</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"></span></font></em></strong></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">-------- Original-<span
class="SpellE">Nachricht</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>--------<br>
Datum: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:10:05 -0500 (CDT)<br>
Von:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a><br>
An:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a><br>
CC:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org">X3D-Public@web3d.org</a><br>
Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">>is there something else in the standard,
that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">To the best of my knowledge no -not as a
standard per se.</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">However some people have done interesting MU
stuff with php:</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.x-robot.com/">http://www.x-robot.com/</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://3dchat.3d-check.com/">http://3dchat.3d-check.com/</a></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">Paul Aslin has something similar as well -it
may be the 3dchat link.</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most
promise for low cost</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">(i.e. Free as in free client AND server)</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">Apr 30, 2010 04:23:34 PM,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de537344352.1272709485.54f3f8ca&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</span></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dear all<br>
<br>
I did some private (hobby) studies regarding multiuser mode and rather
complex scenes (combining content from different authors) and would
like to ask, if you could second my experiences,<br>
<br>
or if somebody disagrees (the whole project is documented at<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://simulrr.wordpress.com%29.">http://simulrr.wordpress.com).</a><br>
<br>
See below<br>
<br>
I am aware of Network Sensor and DIS, is there something else in the
standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance<br>
Christoph</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font face="Times New Roman" size="5"><span
style="font-size: 18pt;">BS Contact
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">Supported from the beginning of the project.
Multi-user-mode with and BS Collaborate definitively possible.</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font face="Times New Roman" size="5"><span
style="font-size: 18pt;">Octaga
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">Supported from spring 2009 onwards.
Multi-user-mode with theoretically possible, but no free test version
of collaboration server available -> multi-user-mode cannot be
supported currently.</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font face="Times New Roman" size="5"><span
style="font-size: 18pt;">Instant Reality
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">First trials positive. Yet unknown, whether
Network Sensor node is supported or not. According to X3D-public
mailing list an open source multi-user-framework exists (to be
analysed).</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font face="Times New Roman" size="5"><span
style="font-size: 18pt;">Free WRL
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">First trials show, that is not supported →
postponed.</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font face="Times New Roman" size="5"><span
style="font-size: 18pt;">Xj3D
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">First trials show, that Xj3D has problems
with nested prototypes → postponed.</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font face="Times New Roman" size="5"><span
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">Not available AFAIK</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font face="Times New Roman" size="5"><span
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">First trials not un-positive, but show up
problems with viewpoints in prototypes, proximity sensors in prototypes
etc. → postponed</span></font></p>
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