<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">A programming language, an interface and a protocol are all the same thing in my mind. They are all transferring things from one domain to another domain.<div><br></div><div>Check out DIS in X3D-Edit--I think it still exists.</div><div><div><div><br></div><div>John</div><div><div><div>On May 3, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Christoph Valentin wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin: 0pt; padding: 0pt;">
Hi<br><br>Do you address me?<br><br>No, I dont't think about such details. I just mean a standardized *interface* between client and server (that may comprise several protocols, and if I interpret Russ's answer correctly, a standardized interface existed, but has been abandoned).<br><br>No, it's just because I see a use case, that *might* be realistic in *some* future and that *could* pay off.<br><br>Imagine, you are the provider of a multiuser scene and you have two users, user A (let's call her Alice) and user B (let's call him Bob).<br><br>You have found your favourite server operator, Alice wants to meet Bob in your scene, but Alice prefers browser A and Bob prefers browser B. The server supports only one of both browsers.<br><br>Alice wants to meet Bob in your scene, but it is unfortunately impossible :-(<br><blockquote type="cite"><p>-------- Original-Nachricht --------<br>Datum: Sun, 2 May 2010 18:51:48 -0700<br>Von: John Carlson <<a href="mailto:john.carlson3@sbcglobal.net">john.carlson3@sbcglobal.net</a>><br>An: X3D Graphics public mailing list <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)<br><br></p>
<div>What application layer standard would you use? XMPP? HTTP? IRC? What standardization is there above the application level? Jingle, HTML, X3D, and VRML. I think you're asking to standardize languages, like Lojban or something similar.</div>
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<div>On May 2, 2010, at 2:50 AM, Christoph Valentin wrote:</div>
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<div lang="EN-US" style="margin: 0pt; padding: 0pt;">Thanks for the technical hints.<br><br>And yes: if I were important, I would second your statement that a standardized protocol/interface between client and server would be an asset for X3D.<br><br>However, commercial companies usually do<br> - what the customer wants<br> - what is the cheapest<br>(in this order)<br><br>And as long as the customers (i.e. content authors) do not insist in a standardized protocol, there won't be a standardized protocol.<br><br>it's that easy, imho. Please correct me, if I'm not aware of some details of the X3D history, since I'm more or less a newbie.<br><blockquote type="cite"><p>-------- Original-Nachricht --------<br>Datum: Sun, 02 May 2010 02:05:20 -0400<br>Von: "Russ Kinter" <<a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1619885838.1272909187.1479bea4&to=pyth7%40verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a>><br>An: "'Christoph Valentin'" <<a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1619885838.1272909187.1479bea4&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>><br>CC: "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <<a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1619885838.1272909187.1479bea4&to=x3d-public%40web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>Betreff: RE: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)<br><br></p>
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<div align="center" style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></strong><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Christoph Valentin [mailto:<a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at]</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, May 01, 2010 6:37 AM<br><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a><br><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org">X3D-Public@web3d.org</a><br><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">> As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">> (i.e. Free as in free client AND server)</span></font></p>
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<div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>Unfortunately, I like the Network Sensor concept (due to its generality), and don't forget:<font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></span></font></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>* An X3D viewer is not required to support Java (either Internal in a Script node or external)<font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></span></font></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>* An X3D viewer is required to support ECMAScript in the Script node - if the viewer supports the Script node<br>* An X3D viewer is not required to support external SAI with ECMAScript<br>(I copied these sentences from another forum, Author: Leonard Daly)<br><br>When I use network sensors, it's possible to implement rather complex MU animations/simulations just using<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="GramE">ECMAScript, without being dependent on the SAI/EAI.</span></span></font></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">[Russ Kinter]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span> </span>It’s called cascading.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">One event from the network has the capability of triggering many animations<span class="GramE">..</span></span></font></em></strong></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">EAI when it is done properly is exactly the same way.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">You instance a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node and I instance a proto that is acquired by the Java. In both our cases it is the ECMA script that does most of the work in terms of animations.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">You are dependent on the X3D browser implementing<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node to communicate to the server and I am dependent on a Java Socket and thread. We are both dependent on some extra feature to talk to the network.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">The difference is with EAI can do far more - I can communicate with other Java programs.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">For example since Instant Player won’t play mp3 files I found an open-source Java program that can and after writing a faux-Sound Node I can play mp3 and other audio formats not supported by any X3D browser in a world.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">As far as the “mandatory” issue goes, I don’t think the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is mandatory either at least when I search</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><a href="http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/">http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/</a></span></font></em></strong></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span class="GramE"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">it</span></font></em></strong></span><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>can’t be found. So I suggest both means of talking to the network are<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font></em></strong><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">optional</span></font></em></strong><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Don’t get me wrong the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node is -or rather- was a great idea until its protocol was allowed to be made proprietary. God forbid profits should be missed out on because some amateurs could possibly write an MU system using the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="SpellE">NetworkSensor</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Node. For me the whole proprietary protocol issue makes a sham out of claims of the spec being open-source.</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Riddle me this: What is part of an open-source spec but isn’t itself open-source?</span></font></em></strong></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">-------- Original-<span class="SpellE">Nachricht</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>--------<br>Datum: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:10:05 -0500 (CDT)<br>Von:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a><br>An:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a><br>CC:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org">X3D-Public@web3d.org</a><br>Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">>is there something else in the standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">To the best of my knowledge no -not as a standard per se.</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">However some people have done interesting MU stuff with php:</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><a href="http://www.x-robot.com/">http://www.x-robot.com/</a><br><a href="http://3dchat.3d-check.com/">http://3dchat.3d-check.com/</a></span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Paul Aslin has something similar as well -it may be the 3dchat link.</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">(i.e. Free as in free client AND server)</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Russ Kinter</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Apr 30, 2010 04:23:34 PM,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de537344352.1272709485.54f3f8ca&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</span></font></p>
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<blockquote style="border-left-width: 2.25pt; border-style: none none none solid; padding: 0in; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dear all<br><br>I did some private (hobby) studies regarding multiuser mode and rather complex scenes (combining content from different authors) and would like to ask, if you could second my experiences,<br><br>or if somebody disagrees (the whole project is documented at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://simulrr.wordpress.com).">http://simulrr.wordpress.com).</a><br><br>See below<br><br>I am aware of Network Sensor and DIS, is there something else in the standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?<br><br>Thanks in advance<br>Christoph</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">BS Contact
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</span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Supported from the beginning of the project. Multi-user-mode with and BS Collaborate definitively possible.</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Octaga
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</span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Supported from spring 2009 onwards. Multi-user-mode with theoretically possible, but no free test version of collaboration server available -> multi-user-mode cannot be supported currently.</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Instant Reality
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</span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">First trials positive. Yet unknown, whether Network Sensor node is supported or not. According to X3D-public mailing list an open source multi-user-framework exists (to be analysed).</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Free WRL
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Xj3D
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</span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">First trials show, that Xj3D has problems with nested prototypes → postponed.</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Vivaty
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</span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Not available AFAIK</span></font></p>
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 18pt;">SwirlX3D
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</span></font></strong></h2><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">First trials not un-positive, but show up problems with viewpoints in prototypes, proximity sensors in prototypes etc. → postponed</span></font></p>
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