<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 2 May 2010 19:50, Christoph Valentin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
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Thanks for the technical hints.<br><br>And yes: if I were important, I would second your statement that a standardized protocol/interface between client and server would be an asset for X3D.<br><br>However, commercial companies usually do<br>
- what the customer wants<br> - what is the cheapest<br>(in this order)<br><br>And as long as the customers (i.e. content authors) do not insist in a standardized protocol, there won't be a standardized protocol.<br>
<br>it's that easy, imho. Please correct me, if I'm not aware of some details of the X3D history, since I'm more or less a newbie.<br></div></blockquote><div>That's basically the way it has gone historically. There appeared to be little will among the Browser vendors to collectively agree on and work on a standardised sensor node and protocol. It may also be that my expectations for real progress to an agreed standard in a 2 year time frame was unrealistic. Anyway, status quo seems a little better but nowhere near [my] original target, and I have moved on.</div>
<div><br></div><div>best of luck,</div><div><br></div><div>chris</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div link="blue" lang="EN-US" vlink="blue" style="margin:0pt;padding:0pt">
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<p>-------- Original-Nachricht --------<br>Datum: Sun, 02 May 2010 02:05:20 -0400<br>Von: "Russ Kinter" <<a href="mailto:pyth7@verizon.net" target="_blank">pyth7@verizon.net</a>><br>An: "'Christoph Valentin'" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>><br>
CC: "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>Betreff: RE: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)<br><br></p><div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></strong><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma"> Christoph Valentin [mailto:<a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at]</a> <br>
<strong><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></strong> Saturday, May 01, 2010 6:37 AM<br><strong><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></strong> <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net" target="_blank">pyth7@verizon.net</a><br>
<strong><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></strong> <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org" target="_blank">X3D-Public@web3d.org</a><br>
<strong><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></strong> Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">> As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">> (i.e. Free as in free client AND server)
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br> Unfortunately, I like the Network Sensor concept (due to its generality), and don't forget:<font color="navy"><span style="color:navy">
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br> * An X3D viewer is not required to support Java (either Internal in a Script node or external)<font color="navy"><span style="color:navy">
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br> * An X3D viewer is required to support ECMAScript in the Script node - if the viewer supports the Script node<br>
* An X3D viewer is not required to support external SAI with ECMAScript<br> (I copied these sentences from another forum, Author: Leonard Daly)<br><br> When I use network sensors, it's possible to implement rather complex MU animations/simulations just using <span>ECMAScript, without being dependent on the SAI/EAI.</span>
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">[Russ Kinter] <span> </span>It’s called cascading.
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">One event from the network has the capability of triggering many animations<span>..</span>
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">EAI when it is done properly is exactly the same way.
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">You instance a <span>NetworkSensor</span> Node and I instance a proto that is acquired by the Java. In both our cases it is the ECMA script that does most of the work in terms of animations.
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">You are dependent on the X3D browser implementing <span>NetworkSensor</span> Node to communicate to the server and I am dependent on a Java Socket and thread. We are both dependent on some extra feature to talk to the network.
</span></font></em></strong></p><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><p> </p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">The difference is with EAI can do far more - I can communicate with other Java programs.
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">For example since Instant Player won’t play mp3 files I found an open-source Java program that can and after writing a faux-Sound Node I can play mp3 and other audio formats not supported by any X3D browser in a world.
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">As far as the “mandatory” issue goes, I don’t think the <span>NetworkSensor</span> is mandatory either at least when I search
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic"><a href="http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/" target="_blank">http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/</a>
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><span><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">it</span></font></em></strong></span><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic"> can’t be found. So I suggest both means of talking to the network are </span></font></em></strong><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">optional</span></font></em></strong><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">.
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">Don’t get me wrong the <span>NetworkSensor</span> Node is -or rather- was a great idea until its protocol was allowed to be made proprietary. God forbid profits should be missed out on because some amateurs could possibly write an MU system using the <span>NetworkSensor</span> Node. For me the whole proprietary protocol issue makes a sham out of claims of the spec being open-source.
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><strong><em><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">Riddle me this: What is part of an open-source spec but isn’t itself open-source?
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">-------- Original-<span>Nachricht</span> --------<br> Datum: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:10:05 -0500 (CDT)<br> Von: <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net" target="_blank">pyth7@verizon.net</a><br>
An: <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a><br> CC: <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org" target="_blank">X3D-Public@web3d.org</a><br>
Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">>is there something else in the standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">However some people have done interesting MU stuff with php:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Paul Aslin has something similar as well -it may be the 3dchat link.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">(i.e. Free as in free client AND server)
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Russ Kinter
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Apr 30, 2010 04:23:34 PM, <a href="http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de537344352.1272709485.54f3f8ca&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a> wrote:
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Dear all<br><br> I did some private (hobby) studies regarding multiuser mode and rather complex scenes (combining content from different authors) and would like to ask, if you could second my experiences,<br>
<br> or if somebody disagrees (the whole project is documented at <a href="http://simulrr.wordpress.com)." target="_blank">http://simulrr.wordpress.com).</a><br><br> See below<br><br> I am aware of Network Sensor and DIS, is there something else in the standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?<br>
<br> Thanks in advance<br> Christoph
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:18pt">BS Contact
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Supported from the beginning of the project. Multi-user-mode with and BS Collaborate definitively possible.
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:18pt">Octaga
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Supported from spring 2009 onwards. Multi-user-mode with theoretically possible, but no free test version of collaboration server available -> multi-user-mode cannot be supported currently.
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:18pt">Instant Reality
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">First trials positive. Yet unknown, whether Network Sensor node is supported or not. According to X3D-public mailing list an open source multi-user-framework exists (to be analysed).
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:18pt">Free WRL
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">First trials show, that is not supported → postponed.
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:18pt">Xj3D
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">First trials show, that Xj3D has problems with nested prototypes → postponed.
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<h2><strong><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:18pt">Vivaty
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Not available AFAIK
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">First trials not un-positive, but show up problems with viewpoints in prototypes, proximity sensors in prototypes etc. → postponed
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br><br><br> -- <br> GMX.at - Österreichs FreeMail-Dienst mit über 2 Mio Mitgliedern<br> E-Mail, SMS & mehr! Kostenlos: <a href="http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atfreemail" target="_blank">http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atfreemail</a>
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