<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 5 May 2010 12:07, Dave A <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dave@realmofconcepts.com">dave@realmofconcepts.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><div class="im">
<a href="mailto:pyth7@verizon.net" target="_blank">pyth7@verizon.net</a> wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Seems David A on this thread disagrees with you: </div>
</blockquote></div>
I'll be the judge of that ;-)<br>
<br>
I agree that X3D should be much easier to author. It is not. Who was it
that said you don't even<br>
need to be a programmer? Yeah, only if your content is brain-dead (not
'horrible' just not<br>
a 'smart object' model). Otherwise, heck yeah you need to be a
programmer, and understand protos<br>
and all that.<br>
<br>
The X3D spec was written by and for player implementors, not authors.
Good docs and tools are<br>
few. It's a real shame that Vivaty Studio is now in limbo, as it was
the only tool really aimed<br>
at authors (that is, artists, not so much geeks). There are a few other
tools out there, for geeks.<br>
Or you can write your own. Not a way to run an airline!<br>
<br>
What is needed is a good open-source tool like Vivaty Studio. I know
about Blender, it is far and<br>
away too overblown to be very useful for X3D but bless its heart.<br>
<br>
And I bless efforts to make a more semantic type of 3d. I came at this
from game authoring tools<br>
where you could author something to 'spin' (with a speed and axis, not
a bunch of key frames)<br>
or that something 'moves when bumped into' and so forth. This is a
higher-level description which<br>
can be down-converted to X3D, very hard to go the other way. Tools
should make it very simple<br>
for the non-programming artist, and produce the underlying
code/structures as needed (this is what<br>
my Unreal converter does, btw). Specifying things semantically is far
more portable, if that's the<br>
goal.<br>
<br>
My point on the MU protocol, to get back to the original thread, was
that, if any protocols could<br>
be used (thus spawning a 'protocol war'), then some mechanism for a
'user defined' protocol<br></div></blockquote><div>that was part of the proposed network sensor specification - it was called an "application protocol"<br>which rides on top of the http/udp or whatever is being used.<br>
<br>Butr if I get your point: some basic protocol (that uses this method/API) should have been mandated.<br>I agree. <br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
should have been mandated (and an open one be initiated), or short of
that, a very basic <br>
common-tongue protocol which might be over-ridden by any particular
browser. Thus, they <br>
could at least all speak to each other, but would speak best (more
efficiently) if speaking to their<br>
own kind. Not certify as compliant if they could not at least do that
much.<br></div></blockquote><div>agreed,<br><br>chris <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<br>
Dave A.<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:pyth7@verizon.net" target="_blank">pyth7@verizon.net</a> wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div>Seems David A on this thread disagrees with you:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>May 3, 2010 04:42:15 PM, <a href="mailto:dave@realmofconcepts.com" target="_blank">dave@realmofconcepts.com</a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid rgb(102, 153, 204);">
<div>Seems like a 'user defined' protocol should have been a
required option, and<br>
a public version spec'ed out for anyone to implement. <br>
<br>
But I can see why no commercial player vendor would implement such, they<br>
need to increase their user-base, you do that by requiring your player.<br>
<br>
[Russ Kinter]: Moreover, even if what you and Chris say happens, If I
were someone who paid for a server using the propietary protocol (and I
think I know of two) and suddenly the latest version of the client
switched to the open-source protocol I'd be pissed to put it mildly and
either (depending on my budget)</div>
<div> 1. Can it entirely.</div>
<div> 2. Move to another format.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>
May 4, 2010 06:00:31 PM, <a href="mailto:cbullard@hiwaay.net" target="_blank">cbullard@hiwaay.net</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid rgb(102, 153, 204);">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;">“</span></font>To
my thinking: the same motivation one would have to support openGL :
increased portability and interoperability makes business sense to me.“</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;">Mine too.
Portability of content is what I want. As the artist, I don’t WANT to
pick the radios.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;">Art
production requires lots of time in. For the time in to pay out,
content has to be resilient to shocks from the browser. That makes it
hard to host and rehost anything but video. Some really easy to apply
interface widgets can greatly improve productivity but are costly to
experiment with on the host given the distribution of the host.
Software kudzu. One response is to identify and reward the strengths
of the software instead of working to perfect the deficits, in this
case, take advantage of X3D’s relative isolation and agree quickly to
build widgets that DO reduce the authoring load and are sharable among
the local software ecosystem. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;">VRML/X3D
browser vendors should be collapsing the space for ease of authorship *
maintenance, or roughly, how much time can be spent making new assets
vs maintaining viable stock resources.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;">Ultimately
content domains like biological domains cohere in the face of novelty
through practice, memory and feedback. A framework of response
domains maps the services to the organizations that perform them in
response to the panarchies that authorize them in response to the
event/incident type. That is the key to resilience.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;">len</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;"></span></font> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
<a href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a> [<a href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" target="_blank">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Chris Thorne<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> </span></font><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Monday, May 03, 2010</span></font><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">12:22 AM</span></font><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Russ Kinter<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> X3D Graphics
public mailing list<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)</span></font></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font> </p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 0.5in; margin-right: 0in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font> </p>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On </span></font>3
May 2010 13:37, Russ Kinter <<a href="mailto:pyth7@verizon.net" target="_blank">pyth7@verizon.net</a>> wrote:</p>
<div vlink="blue" link="blue">
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;"></span></font> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;"></span></font> </p>
<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<div>
<div style="text-align: center; margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr width="100%" align="center" size="2"></span></font></div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> Chris Thorne [mailto:<a href="mailto:dragonmagi@gmail.com" target="_blank">dragonmagi@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> </span></font><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Sunday, May 02, 2010</span></font><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">8:35 PM</span></font><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Christoph
Valentin<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Russ Kinter; <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a></span></font></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">There
appeared to be little will among the Browser vendors to collectively
agree on and work on a standardised sensor node and protocol. It may
also be that my expectations for real progress to an agreed standard in
a 2 year time frame was unrealistic. Anyway, status quo seems a little
better but nowhere near [my] original target, and I have moved on.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><b><i><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-style: italic; color: navy; font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold;">[Russ
Kinter] But at the end of the day what remains of the VRML/X3D
community now has an open-source Node standard that really isn’t
open-source.</span></font></i></b></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">It is
true there are no open source implementations of the proposed
connection and network sensor nodes. but the nodes are not part of the
standard as you seem to suggest.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font> </p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">
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<div>
<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><b><i><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-style: italic; color: navy; font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold;">Do
you really believe that the two biggest and strongest players BSContact
and Octaga with their own protocols are going play nice and help
establish one protocol in the future?</span></font></i></b></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I had
thought it was to everyones advantage, including that of the Browser
vendors..</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">
<div vlink="blue" link="blue">
<div>
<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><b><i><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-style: italic; color: navy; font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold;">What
possible motivation would they have for doing so?</span></font></i></b></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">To my
thinking: the same motivation one would have to support openGL :
increased portability and interoperability makes business sense to me. </span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">
<div vlink="blue" link="blue">
<div>
<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><b><i><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-style: italic; color: navy; font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold;">Maybe
it is a way to force customers who use their MU servers to buy the new
version, because the latest versions of the clients won’t handle the
old protocol?</span></font></i></b></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">yes -
that is a kind of vendor lockin than many companies go for. That is
their business decision and I respect that, tho I don't particularly
like it. </span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">
<div vlink="blue" link="blue">
<div>
<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
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<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><b><i><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-style: italic; color: navy; font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold;">Now
that’s a sure way to gain and keep brand/format loyalty.</span></font></i></b></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">:) </span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">
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<div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><b><i><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-style: italic; color: navy; font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold;"></span></font></i></b> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;" class="MsoNormal"><b><i><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-style: italic; color: navy; font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold;"></span></font></i></b> </p>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 0.5in; margin-right: 0in;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
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There be greater truth at the centre: <a href="http://www.floatingorigin.com" target="_blank">http://www.floatingorigin.com</a><br>
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</span></font></p>
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