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    Sven-Erik,<br>
    <br>
    I think you would use the NITE stuff to get the skeletal data for
    sure, and you'll need a mapping between it and H-Anim. I believe
    that would just be a naming convention. NITE doesn't provide many
    joints (no fingers, not much spine, etc.) So you would probably want
    to interpolate joints that may appear between the ones that NITE
    does provide. Ex: if you have 3 neck joints before the head, and
    NITE only give neck and head, you'll need to do something with those
    other joints between neck and head. I don't know, does X3D handle
    that automatically?<br>
    And of course any conversion between coordinate systems.<br>
    <br>
    Dave A.<br>
    <br>
    On 11/22/2011 1:38 AM, Sven-Erik Tiberg wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CE029B0733766A4B9E42009813D1BEA40C6E2D3A@STAEXDB2.staff.ltu.se"
      type="cite">
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        <p>Hi David</p>
        <p> </p>
        <p>Thanks a lot for the links.</p>
        <p> </p>
        <p>About stream package size, we have been discussing it a bit
          and found that it could be possible to transfere states doing
          a roughly estimate. Maybee someone would like to help us doing
          a more accurate estimation of  xml based states transfere rate
          and possible minimum physical transport layer ( ADSL,
          Wireless,,, ) to be used.  </p>
        <p> </p>
        <p>Note: </p>
        <p>- XMPP uses zlib <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0138.html">http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0138.html</a> for
          compression and an estimate compression ratio are presented in
          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="http://gnosis.cx/publish/programming/xml_compression.html">http://gnosis.cx/publish/programming/xml_compression.html</a></p>
        <p>- XMPP also uses SLL / TSL <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0035.html">
            http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0035.html</a> to improve
          security.</p>
        <p>and BOSH ( Bidirectional-streams Over Synchronous HTTP ) <a
            moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0206.html">
            http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0206.html</a> to use
          connection over port 80.</p>
        <p> </p>
        <p>OpenNI / NITE <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.keyboardmods.com/2010/12/howto-kinect-openninite-skeleton.html">http://www.keyboardmods.com/2010/12/howto-kinect-openninite-skeleton.html</a> could
          IMHO be usefull to support calculation joint rotation for
          h-amin. Have to look deeper into this.
        </p>
        <p> </p>
        <p>Once again many thanks for your responce.</p>
        <p> </p>
        <p>/Sven-Erik</p>
        <p> </p>
        <p> </p>
        <div style="FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; COLOR: #000000;
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          <div style="DIRECTION: ltr" id="divRpF3777"><font
              color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Dave A
              [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dave@realmofconcepts.com">dave@realmofconcepts.com</a>]<br>
              <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 21, 2011 6:13 PM<br>
              <b>To:</b> Sven-Erik Tiberg<br>
              <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@3dnpvei.com">x3d-public@3dnpvei.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [X3D-Public] UI Standards. WAS: When
              will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World
              of Warcraft<br>
            </font><br>
          </div>
          <div>There are google groups for OpenNI <a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="http://groups.google.com/group/openni-dev?pli=1"
              target="_blank">
              http://groups.google.com/group/openni-dev?pli=1</a> and
            Kinect <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="http://groups.google.com/group/openkinect"
              target="_blank">
              http://groups.google.com/group/openkinect</a><br>
            <br>
            You can put whatever network protocol you want on it,
            because there is none. Because of the amount of data and the
            speed you want to move it, I wouldn't wrap it with a verbose
            language, keep it as compact (binary) as possible.<br>
            <br>
            The PrimeSense and Microsoft libraries are basically device
            drivers, and OpenNI is an abstraction layer which (in
            theory) could handle multiple cameras (including stereo
            cameras), and audio and all that, so it would not require a
            Kinect.<br>
            <br>
            The NITE component handles the skeletal tracking. So you
            could map that stuff to HANIM or whatnot.<br>
            <br>
            I've used this with Unity and had skeletal tracking to drive
            an in-scene avatar working in less than an hour. Drag and
            drop simplicity. But that's Unity.<br>
            <br>
            Dave A<br>
            <br>
            On 11/21/2011 7:21 AM, Sven-Erik Tiberg wrote:
            <blockquote type="cite">
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                <p>Hi</p>
                <p> </p>
                <p>Your reply Yvonne Jung <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:yjung@igd.fhg.de" target="_blank">yjung@igd.fhg.de</a>:</p>
                <p>" Kinect can be used together with Instant Reality:<br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                    href="http://doc.instantreality.org/tutorial/using-openni-devices/"
                    target="_blank">http://doc.instantreality.org/tutorial/using-openni-devices/</a>
                  "</p>
                <p>made me look into OpenNI as a generic HID interface
                  for Kineckt to any application / network protocol. </p>
                <p>IMHO: Open up interesting areas.  </p>
                <p>Same with your interface for AR ( InstantReality ) to
                  Kineckt and hopefully to more Human Interface devices.</p>
                <p> </p>
                <p>Found a facebook group about OpenNI with a lot of
                  usefull info but missed to save it a favourite, anyone
                  knowing about it. </p>
                <p> </p>
                <p>Presently looking for a XMPP extension to
                  OpenNI, where it could be possible to use HAnim XML
                  schema to define and transfere positions of humans /
                  avatars.</p>
                <p>You may excuse me for focusing on XMPP but so
                  far IMHO it fills most of the needs for a MU system
                  even including simulink models with network interface
                  and running in Pseudo RT mode.</p>
                <p>Noticed that Haptic3D ( H3D ) can interface XMPP
                  using xmppy lib.</p>
                <p> </p>
                <p>Seems that it's possible to make a powerfull MU
                  system using a lot of OpenSource products and
                  initatives.</p>
                <p>And a bit of brain and keyboard efford.</p>
                <p> </p>
                <p>Consider now how to use the h-amin XML chema and if
                  it's possible to reduce the chema för different 3D
                  applications.</p>
                <p> </p>
                <p>BG</p>
                <p>/Sven-Erik Tiberg</p>
                <p>Lulea Univ. of Technology.</p>
                <p> </p>
                <p> </p>
                <p> </p>
                <p> </p>
                <p> </p>
                <div style="FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; COLOR:
                  #000000; FONT-SIZE: 16px">
                  <hr tabindex="-1">
                  <div style="DIRECTION: ltr" id="divRpF132467"><font
                      color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">
                        x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a> [<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>]
                      on behalf of Christoph Valentin [<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
                        target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>]<br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 19, 2011 1:21 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public@3dnpvei.com"
                        target="_blank">
                        x3d-public@3dnpvei.com</a>; <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">
                        x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [X3D-Public] UI Standards.
                      WAS: When will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon?
                      Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft<br>
                    </font><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Hi Lauren<br>
                    <br>
                    Completely agree.<br>
                    <br>
                    I should have better matched the "Network Sensor"
                    with the "socket interface". Both have nothing to do
                    with the actually used network and transport
                    protocols.<br>
                    <br>
                    Regarding the MU Server topic, I'd historically
                    match MU Servers with the different Networks
                    (Ethernet, Token Ring, .......), where the network
                    sensor + protocol tbd. would historically match to
                    socket interface + TCP/IP.<br>
                    <br>
                    However, I'm no prophet, so future will show, if
                    this comparison will have been valid :-)<br>
                    <br>
                    Thanks<br>
                    Christoph<br>
                    <br>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <p>-------- Original-Nachricht --------<br>
                        Datum: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 05:55:34 -0500<br>
                        Von: "x3d-public" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:x3d-public@3dnpvei.com"
                          target="_blank">
                          <x3d-public@3dnpvei.com></a><br>
                        An: "'Christoph Valentin'" <a
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
                          target="_blank">
                          <christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a>, <a
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
                          target="_blank">
                          x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
                        Betreff: RE: UI Standards. WAS: [X3D-Public]
                        When will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's
                        Kinect + World of Warcraft<br>
                        <br>
                      </p>
                      Christoph, <br>
                      <br>
                      You were asking "how far?". And, IOW, my answer
                      was 'that-is-how-far for MU UI standards, but
                      why'. I wanted to help explore what it is you had
                      in mind because I found it intriguing.<br>
                      <br>
                      >...if the pilot avatar has some properties
                      that mandate to "run" the pilot avatar in a given
                      instance.<br>
                      <br>
                      I did not mean to completely hijack this thread
                      but, isn't that exactly was MU servers are for? If
                      the avatar is in a different instance then that
                      avatar is no longer pilot, right? You are talking
                      about a MU client-server relationship and that is
                      just what they (the MU servers) help do. Or do I
                      not understand your point correctly?<br>
                      <br>
                      Likewise, tcp/ip can, like other protocols, be
                      used in the context of a network sensor
                      implementation, or any MU network for that matter
                      (Network Sensor is only a name for a set of
                      agreed-upon implementation parameters and methods.
                      Just another link in the network chain. In and by
                      itself doesn't really do anything. But I digress).
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      Cheers,<br>
                      Lauren<br>
                      3dnpvei.com<br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      From: Christoph Valentin [<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                        href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
                        target="_blank">mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>]
                      <br>
                      Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:08 AM<br>
                      To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public@3dnpvei.com"
                        target="_blank">
                        x3d-public@3dnpvei.com</a><br>
                      Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">
                        x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
                      Subject: Re: UI Standards. WAS: [X3D-Public] When
                      will see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect +
                      World of Warcraft<br>
                      <br>
                      Hello Lauren<br>
                      <br>
                      Thanks for your answers.<br>
                      <br>
                      ad "Interesting questions. What do you have in
                      mind?":<br>
                      In his original answer, Dave wrote: "you would
                      need it running a server,<br>
                      which may be localhost". I'm just thinking the
                      next step: What, if is NOT localhost?<br>
                      Could have impacts on performance. And what, if
                      the pilot avatar has some <br>
                      properties that mandate to "run" the pilot avatar
                      in a given instance?<br>
                      <br>
                      2- X3D is the best example that standardization
                      needs not necessarily preclude innovation,<br>
                      as long as the standard is flexible and extensible
                      enough.<br>
                      However, it's always an art of timing (doing it
                      not too early and not too late).<br>
                      <br>
                      3 - regarding DIS, I'd like to be "blind on that
                      eye" :-)<br>
                      You know, I'm comparing the network sensor with
                      TCP/IP (regarding its<br>
                      historical relevance)<br>
                      <br>
                      All the best<br>
                      Christoph<br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      -------- Original-Nachricht --------<br>
                      Datum: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:40:29 -0500<br>
                      Von: "x3d-public" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public@3dnpvei.com"
                        target="_blank">
                        <x3d-public@3dnpvei.com></a><br>
                      An: "'Christoph Valentin'" <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
                        target="_blank">
                        <christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a>, <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">
                        x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
                      Betreff: UI Standards. WAS: [X3D-Public] When will
                      see Kinect + X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect +
                      World of Warcraft<br>
                      <br>
                      Hello Christoph,<br>
                      <br>
                      Interesting questions. What do you have in mind?
                      Let me try to answer. <br>
                      <br>
                      1- Perhaps in a third party view, but then the
                      second browser instance would be controlling the
                      pilot (if there is/was such an impmentation). So
                      what's the difference? I am not sure what you are
                      asking exactly.
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      2- Good question perhaps. But do we really want
                      avatar user-interface standardization? If you look
                      at the game industry for example, innovations is a
                      driving factor. Wouldn't standardization impede
                      innovation in that regard?<br>
                      <br>
                      3- I think you may want to look into Distributed
                      Interactive Simulation (DIS) and even Living
                      Worlds for an historical perspective if you
                      haven't (but I suspect you have). There have been
                      some implementation efforts of these and other
                      proposals, but MU user-interface standards??? I
                      would refer back to question #2. <br>
                      <br>
                      4- You can download Avatar Studio 2 and patch
                      files at officetowers.com (click My Avatar).<br>
                      <br>
                      Cheers,<br>
                      Lauren<br>
                      3dnpvei.com<br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">
                        x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a> [<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>]
                      On Behalf Of Christoph Valentin<br>
                      Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 12:47 PM<br>
                      To: Sven-Erik Tiberg; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">
                        x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
                      Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] When will see Kinect +
                      X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft<br>
                      <br>
                      Hi<br>
                      <br>
                      Some additional questions/thoughts............<br>
                      <br>
                      Opinion: The following sentence is true for any
                      Web3D browser and any<br>
                      multiuser system:<br>
                      In any X3D/VRML multiuser session with M users and
                      N instances of a<br>
                      Web3D browser, each (pilot) user controls one
                      pilot avatar and N-1 follower avatars.<br>
                      <br>
                      Question#1: Can we think of situations, where the
                      pilot avatar and the user do<br>
                      not share the same instance of the Web3D Browser,
                      but use different instances?<br>
                      <br>
                      Question#2: How far is the interface between user
                      and his pilot avatar<br>
                      standardized? Do exist de facto standards?<br>
                      <br>
                      Question#3: How far is the interface between pilot
                      avatar and his followers<br>
                      standardized? Do exist de facto standards?<br>
                      <br>
                      Question#4: Could anybody recommend authoring
                      tools for X3D/VRML avatars?<br>
                      (pricing according to hobby use cases, it should
                      be flexible and<br>
                      extensible, fitting to any Web3D browser, best
                      would be open source)<br>
                      <br>
                      Thanks for your help........<br>
                      <br>
                      Christoph<br>
                      <br>
                      -------- Original-Nachricht --------<br>
                      Datum: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:03:17 +0000<br>
                      Von: Sven-Erik Tiberg <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:Sven-Erik.Tiberg@ltu.se"
                        target="_blank">
                        <Sven-Erik.Tiberg@ltu.se></a><br>
                      An: Yvonne Jung <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:yjung@igd.fhg.de" target="_blank">
                        <yjung@igd.fhg.de></a><br>
                      CC: X3D Graphics public mailing list <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">
                        <x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
                      Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] When will see Kinect +
                      X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft<br>
                      Hi<br>
                      <br>
                      Open up new possibilities combining kinetik with
                      instant reality AR!<br>
                      David: you writes about a server can it be a
                      server demon in the same computer that are running
                      Kinetik / OpenNI and a X3D browser or application?<br>
                      /Sven-Erik<br>
                      <br>
                      Skickat från min iPhone<br>
                      <br>
                      17 nov 2011 kl. 20:59 skrev "Yvonne Jung" <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:yjung@igd.fhg.de" target="_blank">
                        <yjung@igd.fhg.de></a>:<br>
                      <br>
                      Hi,<br>
                      <br>
                      Kinect can be used together with Instant Reality:<br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                        href="http://doc.instantreality.org/tutorial/using-openni-devices/"
                        target="_blank">http://doc.instantreality.org/tutorial/using-openni-devices/</a>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      Regards<br>
                      Yvonne <br>
                      <br>
                      Am 17.11.2011 um 19:23 schrieb Dave A <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:dave@realmofconcepts.com"
                        target="_blank">
                        <dave@realmofconcepts.com></a>:<br>
                      <br>
                      I think you would need it running a server, which
                      may be localhost, and talk to that via Ajax or
                      network sensor. Of course if a browser can be
                      extended via DLL, that browser could talk directly
                      to the Kinect, but if you want it multi-platform,
                      local server is the most generic.<br>
                      OpenNI includes hand tracking. Not sure where they
                      are with finger tracking yet. <br>
                      OpenCV and OpenNI have been used together for
                      extra tracking goodness.<br>
                      <br>
                      Dave A<br>
                      <br>
                      On 11/17/2011 1:50 AM, Sven-Erik Tiberg wrote: <br>
                      The newly relesed Kinect SDK <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                        href="http://kinectforwindows.org/"
                        target="_blank">
                        http://kinectforwindows.org/</a> seems
                      interesting, but how to connect it to a X3D sceen.
                      <br>
                      Maybee trough some NetworkSensorNode using some
                      protocol and JScript using libs from
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                        href="http://strophe.im/" target="_blank">http://strophe.im/</a>,
                      or a C++ based X3Dbrowser but then it's limited to
                      that browser.<br>
                      This will give body gesture control, could it be
                      possible to add OpenCV based code to add
                      hand/finger control.<br>
                      And can we use "brain position feedback control"
                      to on the fly calibrate positions and will it
                      introduse brain fatigue.<br>
                      <br>
                      Just some thoughts.<br>
                      <br>
                      /Sven-Erik<br>
                      <br>
                      ________________________________________<br>
                      From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">
                        x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a> [<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>]
                      on behalf of Damon H [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:web3dstudent@gmail.com"
                        target="_blank">web3dstudent@gmail.com</a>]<br>
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:28 PM<br>
                      To: John Carlson<br>
                      Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list<br>
                      Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] When will see Kinect +
                      X3D input? Soon? Here's Kinect + World of Warcraft<br>
                      This is a step in the right direction.<br>
                      Microsoft XBox 360 Kinect preview for X3D
                      applications<br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                        href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNxoPKj5tVs"
                        target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNxoPKj5tVs</a>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:22 PM, John Carlson <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:john.carlson3@sbcglobal.net"
                        target="_blank">
                        <john.carlson3@sbcglobal.net></a> wrote:<br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                        href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62wj8eJ0FHw"
                        target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62wj8eJ0FHw</a><br>
                      <br>
                      _______________________________________________<br>
                      X3D-Public mailing list<br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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                        target="_blank">X3D-Public@web3d.org</a><br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                        href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org"
                        target="_blank">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      -- <br>
                      3D Web & Metaverse builder<br>
                      "We are all students of the emerging 3D web"<br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      _______________________________________________
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http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a> <br>
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