<div dir="ltr"><div>Eric,<br><br>If you're not going to go with X3DOM, why jump at proprietary runtimes like Unreal or Unity? There are other open source options, such as GLAM (my project) and SceneVR (not my project).<br><br><a href="http://www.glamjs.org/">http://www.glamjs.org/</a><br><br><a href="https://github.com/bnolan/scenevr">https://github.com/bnolan/scenevr</a><br><a href="http://www.scenevr.com/">http://www.scenevr.com/</a><br><br></div>These have the benefit of not being tied to X3D legacy, which for some developers is considered a burden. They also work with the latest browser features like CSS Animations, which are far from perfect, but they have the advantage of being universally supported in browsers. And so on. Now, both of these projects are very new and don't have near the person-hours into development that X3D does. But that's part of the attraction for some people: it's a clean slate.<br><br>I understand that for others it's important to maintain X3D compatibility. For those uses, it seems like X3DOM is a good bet.<br><br>Tony<br><br><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Eric Maranne <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eric@geovrml.com" target="_blank">eric@geovrml.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Hi Alan, long time no see :)<br>
<br>
two more cents ...<br>
<br>
cross plugin is almost impossible. It's even very difficult with
different single plugin updates ... ( ! ) , and this, I guess
because no browser has gained enough momentum to impose its own
views on implementation efficiency of protos. From a user POV,
it's well defined. From an implementor POV, efficiency, memory
management, even compatibility with other browsers approaches (!)
and underspec are as many landmines for interoperability. <br>
<br>
Look, even after more than a decade, rotation.multiply is leading
to opposite composition in some VRML browsers ! this is not a
*big* deal in development. It took more than a decade to leverage
cross browser extrusion behaving ... scripting engines still are
not compatible (tried this. operator in other plugin than cortona)
... it took an x3D conformance database testing to get things
going right in X3D, and it took me years of work to port from
Cortona to Contact in the last decade. Not been using XJ3D, for my
apps are stand alone, mostly web disconnected, and porting from
one plugin to the other is too much a pain in the ... . <br>
Interoperability is resolved nowadays by choosing a plugin, and a
container, that's why EVE is a stand alone app, and has been
running like a Swiss cuckoo clock since 1999, version after
version.<br>
<br>
So I don't think cross browser interoperability is an excuse. When
in current implementations rotations are handled differently,
scripting engines capabilities (and syntax expectations !!!) are
different, protos can't be interoperable... and it's not because
of dev. difficulties.<br>
Clearly, browsers ought now to be used in dedicated apps (like EVE
for us), while X3DOM or pure webgl or EMScripten compilations
would be used for Internet delivery/sharing. <br>
<br>
AFAIC, in my business, today, the problem is on the table,
awaiting a decision. Infering stand alone EVE app would disappear
in the end, cause no small business may support several competing
techs for long. We already support OGRE, Contact and Unreal for
different needs, but we need convergence. Are we the only
end-users on the edge of change ? any echoes on the list ?<br>
<br>
Hopefully, concerning Protos, since most of the underlying
implementation is shared (webGL), and if most of the middle layers
implementation is shared (X3DOM), then surely many
VRML/X3D/proprietary plugins interop landmines are gone .... RIP.<br>
My feeling is the new 'VR plugin' is now as low as webgl ... and
the question is ... do we want to build atop, using X3D, or
shifting authoring and usability to production environment UNREAL
or Unity or else, delivering thru Emscripten.. .<br>
<br>
Thanks Fraunhofer team for the good work, thanks Don for your
obstinacy.<br>
<br>
Eric.<br>
<a href="mailto:eric.maranne@vr-crisis.com" target="_blank">eric.maranne@vr-crisis.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le 17/02/2015 17:49, Alan Hudson a écrit :<br>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Don
Brutzman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">First,
congratulations X3DOM developers. Getting to embedded
Script nodes inside of Prototype declarations is about the
most sophisticated thing that there is in X3D. Indeed it
is a major language feature for Extensibility (the X in
X3D). So if we get that working in X3DOM, everything else
is easier. 8)<br>
<br>
Attached please find a recently drawn diagram that sheds
some light on when values of embedded Script fields get
initialized or overridden, and also when they don't.
Perhaps some folks will find it helpful. Comments and
improvements welcome, I'll be cleaning it up and adding an
electronic version to the other prototype resources.<br>
<br>
I'm pretty sure that Xj3D satisfactorily supports
everything (ProtoInstance fieldValue ExternProtoDeclare
ProtoDeclare Script field IS connect). We recently
improved some of the console diagnostics there, which has
helped in scene debugging. If problems are still
encountered, then they are typically elsewhere in the
scene graph. Running open-source Xj3D within Netbeans in
debug mode lets us drill down to any line of code
necessary.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<div>Xj3D never got all the interactions working completely
right. We made an heroic effort but getting cross browser
PROTO's working is not easy. I'd suggest this has proven
not possible at least given all the data points we've seen
on interop issues.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
So implementing this proven, standard, working capability
would seem to be worthwhile. Certainly seems easier than
creating a new nonstandard extension mechanism that
doesn't support X3D content.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<div>The only thing proven is that after a decade of trying
a bunch of dedicated people cannot make them work. </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/16/2015 9:13 AM, Don Brutzman wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
It would be good to discuss strategies for
eventually implementing X3D prototypes.<br>
<br>
Lots of X3D players have implemented prototypes, so
they are a well-proven technology.<br>
<br>
Other opportunities for implementation in X3DOM may
emerge. For example, if there is a design pattern
for mapping an X3D ProtoDeclare into X3DOM source
code, then we could write an XSLT stylesheet to
provide such a conversion on demand.<br>
<br>
Sounds less efficient than simply implementing
prototypes in X3DOM, but it is a path.<br>
<br>
Incidentally, in case anyone had a mistaken
impression, there are no "native XML tags" for
prototypes in the .x3d syntax. Example invocation:<br>
<br>
<ProtoInstance name='TimeDelaySensor'
DEF='TimeDelaySensorExample'><br>
<fieldValue name='description'
value='double click to initiate time-delayed
event'/><br>
<fieldValue name='delayInterval'
value='1'/><br>
</ProtoInstance><br>
<br>
Similar syntax using the @name attribute is provided
for ProtoDeclare and ExternProtoDeclare.
References:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoInstance" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoInstance</a><br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoDeclare" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoDeclare</a><br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ExternProtoDeclare" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ExternProtoDeclare</a><br>
<br>
<a href="http://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes" target="_blank">http://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes</a><br>
<a href="http://x3dgraphics.com/slidesets/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes.pdf" target="_blank">http://x3dgraphics.com/slidesets/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes.pdf</a><br>
<a href="https://www.movesinstitute.org/Video/Courses/X3dForWebAuthors/X3dForWebAuthorsVideo.html#14" target="_blank">https://www.movesinstitute.org/Video/Courses/X3dForWebAuthors/X3dForWebAuthorsVideo.html#14</a><br>
<br>
all the best, Don<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
all the best, Don<br>
-- <br>
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a><br>
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000
USA <a href="tel:%2B1.831.656.2149" value="+18316562149" target="_blank">+1.831.656.2149</a><br>
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics <a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><br><br>Tony Parisi <a href="mailto:tparisi@gmail.com" target="_blank">tparisi@gmail.com</a><br></div><div>Founder, Third Eye <a href="http://www.thirdeye.gl/" target="_blank">http://www.thirdeye.gl/</a><br></div>Follow me on Twitter! <a href="http://twitter.com/auradeluxe" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/auradeluxe</a><br><div>Read my blog at <a href="http://www.tonyparisi.com/" target="_blank">http://www.tonyparisi.com/</a><br></div>Learn WebGL <a href="http://learningwebgl.com/" target="_blank">http://learningwebgl.com/</a><br><div><div>Mobile 415.902.8002<br></div><div>Skype auradeluxe<br></div><br>Read my books! <i><br></i><i><i>Programming 3D Applications in HTML5 and WebGL<br><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Applications-HTML5-WebGL-Visualization/dp/1449362966" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Applications-HTML5-WebGL-Visualization/dp/1449362966</a><br></i>WebGL, Up and Running</i><br>
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/dp/144932357X" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/dp/144932357X</a><br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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