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</head><body style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 12pt;"
text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div style="font-size:
12pt;font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">very
worthy 2 cents</span> in my opinion, which give a good idea of potential
X3Dom end-user requirements: <span>re-usability, maintainability,
scalability,
flexibility, ... availability and cost (I interpret Cost = less
coding overload</span>).<br><br>My numbers are less impressive (~100
nested protos), but I cannot imagine achieving 1/10th of what we have
done without PROTO or PROTO-like capabilities.<br><blockquote
type="cite"><span><span>Now an offer of wrapped up 'smart objects'
(protos/webcomponents,
whatsoever) has a meaning too, both for ease of use or for marke</span> </span></blockquote><span>Agree
too.<br><br>Regards, Daniel<br></span><blockquote style="border: 0px
none;" cite="mid:54E35104.7070901@geovrml.com" type="cite"><div
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eric@geovrml.com"
style="color:#737F92
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none
!important;">Eric Maranne</a></div> <div
style="display:table-cell;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;">
<font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">17 February 2015
14:32</span></font></div></div></div><div
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi,<br>
<br>
my two cents.<br>
<br>
CRISE is actually shifting it's EVE training simulation product
concept towards e-learning, hence ... looking for hassle free,
pluginless implementation, easy to stuff in HTML5 authoring tools.<br>
<br>
> DON states:<br>
> Just performed a search on the X3D Example Archives and found
<ProtoDeclare name="something"/> 1305 times in 319 files.
So they are used. <br>
<br>
My numbers: 3806 objects in EVE objects Library, referencing 1689
EXTERNPROTOS, and implementing 2478 PROTOS ... <br>
Amongst them 98 different doors: sliding,..., opening, ... wood,
glass, metal, ..., old style, modern style, navy ship style, plane
hangar style, ammunition storage style, grocery store style, ...,
intact, broken, bombed, messed with, burned on bottom or burned on
top, ... with or without lock (a whole bunch of lock types,
classic, bio, ...) ... each of them having parameters of course
(size, opening left/right/up .. even down :!, sounds, etc.)
totalising to an unknown number of configurations.<br>
<br>
TONY says:<br>
<br>
><SlidingDoor axis='x' opendistance='.9'
opensound='open.wav' closesound='close.wav' activation='bump'
/><br>
>Where 'SlidingDoor' is a 'smart object' consisting of some
geometry, sensor(s), audio node(s), and perhaps even some scripts.<br>
<br>
IMO VR needs are asking for more degrees of freedom ... well ...
at least my needs. <br>
Note that, in the old days, an exposed texture node would have
been enough to differentiate many of them, nowadays, it asks for
lil more complex shaders, if one wants an inconspicuous rendering
...<br>
<br>
Now, I understand my uses aren't mainstream, but it takes a lot of
different people to make a world of users, and I'm sure DON's
'door' needs aren't JOE's nor TONY's ... so, one in all ... sure
it's possible to design a door Protos covering all the doors ?<br>
Even if PROTOS aren't easy to build and interoperate between
browsers (been using VR since Worldview BTW Tony, thanks, for it
was just great), when focusing on a single coherent implementation
(read plugin ... unfortunately), it is on a modeler/integrator
range of skills... not the same cost/availability as a seasoned
programmer able to deal with polyfills.<br>
<br>
<br>
Considering the shift in knowledge involved, right now, my choice
for porting EVE framework to pluginless implementation is going
towards EMSCRIPTEN because it enables a Proto/object approach from
C++ (or UNREAL/UNITY from my modelers point of view) ... now,
clearly, if X3Dom supported Protos, I would have favoured X3Dom.
Clearly... re-usability, maintainability, scalability,
flexibility, ... availability and cost.<br>
<br>
Now an offer of wrapped up 'smart objects' (protos/webcomponents,
whatsoever) has a meaning too, both for ease of use or for market.<br>
<br>
Thanks and have a nice day.<br>
Eric.<br>
<h1 class="firstHeading" id="firstHeading" lang="fr"><br>
</h1>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le 17/02/2015 02:34, Joe D Williams a écrit :<br>
</div>
<br>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public
mailing list<br><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><br></div></div><div
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net"
style="color:#737F92
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none
!important;">Joe D Williams</a></div> <div
style="display:table-cell;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;">
<font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">17 February 2015
01:34</span></font></div></div></div><div
style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><blockquote type="cite">is a
real component sufficient ...
<br></blockquote>
<br>From my view the most important item of X3D Proto is that a proper
instance is totally alive in the event system, like a native node,
part of event cascade in the event graph.
<br>
<br><blockquote type="cite">what kind of content people really need this
parameterised deep copy
<br>of application data.
<br></blockquote>
<br>Overall, one of the best uses of proto is shown in introdution of
HAnim.
<br>This allowed most any VRML/X3D browser to produce a realistic
resizeable model with deep parameterization and predictable animations
from really pretty simple user code.
<br>This also highlighted the limits of even highly scripted protos for
realtime HAnim deformable skin and vertex displacers and even
stiffness without deep platform support.
<br>
<br>So, that is the main idea, like Tony said, make it easy to
instantiate
custom nodes, so we can interactivly experiment with proven existing
features.
<br>
<br>Thanks and Best,
<br>Joe
<br>
<br>
<br>----- Original Message -----
From: "Behr, Johannes" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:johannes.behr@igd.fraunhofer.de"><johannes.behr@igd.fraunhofer.de></a>
<br>To: "Alan Hudson" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:alan@shapeways.com"><alan@shapeways.com></a>
<br>Cc: "Andreas Plesch" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com"><andreasplesch@gmail.com></a>; "x3d-pulbic
mlist"
<br><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a>; "x3dom-developer mlist"
<br><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3dom-developers@lists.sourceforge.net"><x3dom-developers@lists.sourceforge.net></a>
<br>Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 9:50 AM
<br>Subject: Re: [x3d-public] [x3dom-developers] [X3D-Public] Prototype
<br>
<br>
<br><blockquote type="cite">I totally agree. I also worked on at least
three implementations and
<br>it's almost impossible to get the behaviour in a consistent way. The
<br>concept is powerful but underspecified and a beast by combining
<br>sub-classing and aggregation in a single construct.
<br>
<br>The questions is, for what kind of content people really need this
<br>parameterised deep copy of application data. Or is a real component
<br>sufficient.
<br>
<br>best regards,
<br>Johannes
<br>
<br><blockquote type="cite">Not too be a hater but I don't think its a
good idea to include
<br>PROTO's into X3DOM. The VRML/X3D proto spec + scripting
<br>interactions is very hard to get cross platform. I spent many
<br>years dealing with it and its just too much work. Personally I'd
<br>rather see that development time spent elsewhere improving X3DOM.
<br>It's very helpful to be able to define your own vocabulary but as
<br>it stands PROTO's are not a proven cross platform way to do it.
<br>Maybe the other web native routes will have better luck.
<br>
<br>On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Andreas Plesch
<br><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com"><andreasplesch@gmail.com></a> wrote:
<br>Indeed, not having a PROTO node is a substantial lack of
<br>functionality in the x3dom code base and a loss if compared with
<br>standalone x3d browsers. At the risk of misinterpretation, to me it
<br>looks like there was conscious decision by the x3dom developers at
<br>some early point that the certainly very substantial cost of
<br>developing such functionality outweigh the expected benefits. This
<br>may have changed by now, x3dom-developers ?
<br>If not, it follows that there would be a large demand for guidance
<br>in terms of documentation, tutorials and perhaps tools on how to
<br>convert/translate PROTOs into x3dom compatible js code or custom
<br>x3dom nodes. I tried to provide some initial pointers but clearly
<br>input by the x3dom group is what is really required.
<br>-Andreas
<br>
<br>
<br>On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:00 PM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3d-public-request@web3d.org"><x3d-public-request@web3d.org></a>
<br>wrote:
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<br>
<br>Today's Topics:
<br>
<br> 1. Re: [X3D-Public] Prototype (Daniel Vera)
<br> 2. SSR: server-side rendering (doug sanden)
<br>
<br>
<br>----------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>
<br>Message: 1
<br>Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 10:31:24 +0000
<br>From: Daniel Vera <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:d.a.vera@warwick.ac.uk"><d.a.vera@warwick.ac.uk></a>
<br>To: John Richardson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richards@spawar.navy.mil"><richards@spawar.navy.mil></a>
<br>Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>
<br>Subject: Re: [x3d-public] [X3D-Public] Prototype
<br>Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:54DDD27C.1040900@warwick.ac.uk"><54DDD27C.1040900@warwick.ac.uk></a>
<br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
<br>
<br>John,
<br>
<br>Apologies for reviving an old thread, but in my opinion not having
<br>capability similar to VRML protos is indeed a loss of
<br>functionality;
<br>
<br>Explanation: I am an engineer (industrial production), not a
<br>developer;
<br>VRML PROTO/EXTERNPROTO has allowed our group to build rich 3D based
<br>engineering application using VRML/javascript code only (i.e.
<br>without
<br>the need to go in the depth of coding with low level libraries
<br>etc.).
<br>
<br>(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.youtube.com/user/FDSvideosFDS/videos">https://www.youtube.com/user/FDSvideosFDS/videos</a>)
<br>
<br>Looking into Andreas links (Box.js code in particular), it seems
<br>the way
<br>to go is to define additional X3DOM nodes, but that requires
<br>understanding X3DOM code, which not every class of users wants or
<br>has
<br>time to do; In my opinion, X3DOM should match the capability
<br>provided by
<br>X3D in defining complex modelling class/object using X3D/javascript
<br>code/syntax only.
<br>
<br>That said, I am open to additional suggestion, discussion or links
<br>to
<br>more information!
<br>
<br>Regards, Daniel
<br>
<br>
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#EDEEF0;padding-top:5px"> <div
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<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:johannes.behr@igd.fraunhofer.de" style="color:#737F92
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none
!important;">Behr, Johannes</a></div> <div
style="display:table-cell;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;">
<font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">15 February 2015
17:50</span></font></div></div></div><div
style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><div>I totally agree. I also
worked on at least three implementations and it's almost impossible to
get the behaviour in a consistent way. The concept is powerful but
underspecified and a beast by combining sub-classing and aggregation in a
single construct. <br><br>The questions is, for what kind of content
people really need this parameterised deep copy of application data. Or
is a real component sufficient. <br><br>best regards, <br>Johannes<br><br></div><div><!----><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public
mailing list<br><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><br></div></div><div
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#EDEEF0;padding-top:5px"> <div
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:alan@shapeways.com"
style="color:#737F92
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none
!important;">Alan Hudson</a></div> <div
style="display:table-cell;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;">
<font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">14 February 2015
16:51</span></font></div></div></div><div
style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><div dir="ltr">Not too be a
hater but I don't think its a good idea to include PROTO's into X3DOM.
The VRML/X3D proto spec + scripting interactions is very hard to get
cross platform. I spent many years dealing with it and its just too
much work. Personally I'd rather see that development time spent
elsewhere improving X3DOM. It's very helpful to be able to define your
own vocabulary but as it stands PROTO's are not a proven cross platform
way to do it. Maybe the other web native routes will have better luck. </div><div
class="gmail_extra"><br><br></div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public
mailing list<br><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><br></div></div><div
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style="display:table;width:100%;border-top:1px solid
#EDEEF0;padding-top:5px"> <div
style="display:table-cell;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:100%">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com"
style="color:#737F92
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none
!important;">Andreas Plesch</a></div> <div
style="display:table-cell;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;">
<font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">13 February 2015
20:54</span></font></div></div></div><div
style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><div dir="ltr">Indeed, not
having a PROTO node is a substantial lack of functionality in the x3dom
code base and a loss if compared with standalone x3d browsers. At the
risk of misinterpretation, to me it looks like there was conscious
decision by the x3dom developers at some early point that the certainly
very substantial cost of developing such functionality outweigh the
expected benefits. This may have changed by now, x3dom-developers ?<br><div>If
not, it follows that there would be a large demand for guidance in
terms of documentation, tutorials and perhaps tools on how to
convert/translate PROTOs into x3dom compatible js code or custom x3dom
nodes. I tried to provide some initial pointers but clearly input by the
x3dom group is what is really required.<br></div><div>-Andreas<br></div><div><br><div
class="gmail_extra"><br></div></div></div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public
mailing list<br><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>