<div dir="ltr"><div>Howdy Eric<br><br></div>Understood about the polyfills issue and GLAM. Just FYI it will be extensible because I am porting the whole thing to Web Components. Soon. Someday :-)<br><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Eric Maranne <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eric.maranne@vr-crisis.com" target="_blank">eric.maranne@vr-crisis.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Hi Tony,<br>
<br>
3806 objects in EVE objects Library ... and still growing everyday
... if I may port/reuse even partly some of them .... that'd ease
my taxes funding.<br>
If you remember, I've never been a big enthusiast of DOM, and much
more VR than eXchange... but the X of X3D slowly evolved (in the
list discussions) from eXchange (mostly it's original acception) to
eXtensibility (which fits more closely to VR, but still not enough
IMHO- but it's another story). <br>
DOM is a little bit heavy and awkward (-hating the syntax- thanks
for classic encoding :) ...), but todays processors, memory, video
cards and dev environments relieved the burden OK. Even old school
programmer like me, whom have been educated in sparing bits and
scrubbing loops, can't say much.<br>
<br>
Glamjs is nice, I already had a look at it ( following your moves
since worldview shipped with windows :) ... ), but doesn't provide
extensibility, has poor existing assets portability, requires dev
skills I do not have in my staff (shift from C++ stand alone app to
HTML5 polyfills ... arrgh ...) and is too young for me to bet on.<br>
<br>
You and I saw how many new, eventually good ideas and formats
disappearing down the road ? don't have enough fingers and toes to
count them since the mid 90es. I'm certainly not gonna surprise you
if I'm somehow cautious. VRML/X3D is till kicking and alive ... even
if ... it'd deserves even better IMHO. Nowadays, VR is penduling
back ... may be time to resurrect VRML ? ;-) <br>
<br>
Gonna have a look at scenevr. Multi user out of the box is a good
point ... but .. same remarks as Glamjs ...<br>
<br>
Have a nice afternoon, and may the winds be kind to Glamjs and to
the projects you're fostering.<br>
<br>
Eric.<br>
<a href="mailto:eric.maranne@vr-crisis.com" target="_blank">eric.maranne@vr-crisis.com</a><br>
<br>
<div>Le 17/02/2015 18:52, Tony Parisi a
écrit :<br>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Eric,<br>
<br>
If you're not going to go with X3DOM, why jump at proprietary
runtimes like Unreal or Unity? There are other open source
options, such as GLAM (my project) and SceneVR (not my
project).<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.glamjs.org/" target="_blank">http://www.glamjs.org/</a><br>
<br>
<a href="https://github.com/bnolan/scenevr" target="_blank">https://github.com/bnolan/scenevr</a><br>
<a href="http://www.scenevr.com/" target="_blank">http://www.scenevr.com/</a><br>
<br>
</div>
These have the benefit of not being tied to X3D legacy, which
for some developers is considered a burden. They also work with
the latest browser features like CSS Animations, which are far
from perfect, but they have the advantage of being universally
supported in browsers. And so on. Now, both of these projects
are very new and don't have near the person-hours into
development that X3D does. But that's part of the attraction for
some people: it's a clean slate.<br>
<br>
I understand that for others it's important to maintain X3D
compatibility. For those uses, it seems like X3DOM is a good
bet.<br>
<br>
Tony<br>
<br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Eric
Maranne <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eric@geovrml.com" target="_blank">eric@geovrml.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Hi Alan, long time no see :)<br>
<br>
two more cents ...<br>
<br>
cross plugin is almost impossible. It's even very
difficult with different single plugin updates ... ( ! )
, and this, I guess because no browser has gained enough
momentum to impose its own views on implementation
efficiency of protos. From a user POV, it's well
defined. From an implementor POV, efficiency, memory
management, even compatibility with other browsers
approaches (!) and underspec are as many landmines for
interoperability. <br>
<br>
Look, even after more than a decade, rotation.multiply
is leading to opposite composition in some VRML browsers
! this is not a *big* deal in development. It took more
than a decade to leverage cross browser extrusion
behaving ... scripting engines still are not compatible
(tried this. operator in other plugin than cortona) ...
it took an x3D conformance database testing to get
things going right in X3D, and it took me years of work
to port from Cortona to Contact in the last decade. Not
been using XJ3D, for my apps are stand alone, mostly web
disconnected, and porting from one plugin to the other
is too much a pain in the ... . <br>
Interoperability is resolved nowadays by choosing a
plugin, and a container, that's why EVE is a stand alone
app, and has been running like a Swiss cuckoo clock
since 1999, version after version.<br>
<br>
So I don't think cross browser interoperability is an
excuse. When in current implementations rotations are
handled differently, scripting engines capabilities (and
syntax expectations !!!) are different, protos can't be
interoperable... and it's not because of dev.
difficulties.<br>
Clearly, browsers ought now to be used in dedicated apps
(like EVE for us), while X3DOM or pure webgl or
EMScripten compilations would be used for Internet
delivery/sharing. <br>
<br>
AFAIC, in my business, today, the problem is on the
table, awaiting a decision. Infering stand alone EVE app
would disappear in the end, cause no small business may
support several competing techs for long. We already
support OGRE, Contact and Unreal for different needs,
but we need convergence. Are we the only end-users on
the edge of change ? any echoes on the list ?<br>
<br>
Hopefully, concerning Protos, since most of the
underlying implementation is shared (webGL), and if most
of the middle layers implementation is shared (X3DOM),
then surely many VRML/X3D/proprietary plugins interop
landmines are gone .... RIP.<br>
My feeling is the new 'VR plugin' is now as low as webgl
... and the question is ... do we want to build atop,
using X3D, or shifting authoring and usability to
production environment UNREAL or Unity or else,
delivering thru Emscripten.. .<br>
<br>
Thanks Fraunhofer team for the good work, thanks Don for
your obstinacy.<br>
<br>
Eric.<br>
<a href="mailto:eric.maranne@vr-crisis.com" target="_blank">eric.maranne@vr-crisis.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le 17/02/2015 17:49, Alan Hudson a écrit :<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at
11:19 AM, Don Brutzman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">First,
congratulations X3DOM developers. Getting
to embedded Script nodes inside of Prototype
declarations is about the most sophisticated
thing that there is in X3D. Indeed it is a
major language feature for Extensibility
(the X in X3D). So if we get that working
in X3DOM, everything else is easier. 8)<br>
<br>
Attached please find a recently drawn
diagram that sheds some light on when values
of embedded Script fields get initialized or
overridden, and also when they don't.
Perhaps some folks will find it helpful.
Comments and improvements welcome, I'll be
cleaning it up and adding an electronic
version to the other prototype resources.<br>
<br>
I'm pretty sure that Xj3D satisfactorily
supports everything (ProtoInstance
fieldValue ExternProtoDeclare ProtoDeclare
Script field IS connect). We recently
improved some of the console diagnostics
there, which has helped in scene debugging.
If problems are still encountered, then they
are typically elsewhere in the scene graph.
Running open-source Xj3D within Netbeans in
debug mode lets us drill down to any line of
code necessary.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<div>Xj3D never got all the interactions
working completely right. We made an heroic
effort but getting cross browser PROTO's
working is not easy. I'd suggest this has
proven not possible at least given all the
data points we've seen on interop issues.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
So implementing this proven, standard,
working capability would seem to be
worthwhile. Certainly seems easier than
creating a new nonstandard extension
mechanism that doesn't support X3D content.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<div>The only thing proven is that after a
decade of trying a bunch of dedicated people
cannot make them work. </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div> <br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/16/2015 9:13 AM, Don Brutzman
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> It would be
good to discuss strategies for
eventually implementing X3D
prototypes.<br>
<br>
Lots of X3D players have implemented
prototypes, so they are a well-proven
technology.<br>
<br>
Other opportunities for implementation
in X3DOM may emerge. For example, if
there is a design pattern for mapping
an X3D ProtoDeclare into X3DOM source
code, then we could write an XSLT
stylesheet to provide such a
conversion on demand.<br>
<br>
Sounds less efficient than simply
implementing prototypes in X3DOM, but
it is a path.<br>
<br>
Incidentally, in case anyone had a
mistaken impression, there are no
"native XML tags" for prototypes in
the .x3d syntax. Example invocation:<br>
<br>
<ProtoInstance
name='TimeDelaySensor'
DEF='TimeDelaySensorExample'><br>
<fieldValue
name='description' value='double click
to initiate time-delayed event'/><br>
<fieldValue
name='delayInterval' value='1'/><br>
</ProtoInstance><br>
<br>
Similar syntax using the @name
attribute is provided for ProtoDeclare
and ExternProtoDeclare. References:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoInstance" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoInstance</a><br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoDeclare" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ProtoDeclare</a><br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ExternProtoDeclare" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#ExternProtoDeclare</a><br>
<br>
<a href="http://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes" target="_blank">http://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes</a><br>
<a href="http://x3dgraphics.com/slidesets/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes.pdf" target="_blank">http://x3dgraphics.com/slidesets/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter14-Prototypes.pdf</a><br>
<a href="https://www.movesinstitute.org/Video/Courses/X3dForWebAuthors/X3dForWebAuthorsVideo.html#14" target="_blank">https://www.movesinstitute.org/Video/Courses/X3dForWebAuthors/X3dForWebAuthorsVideo.html#14</a><br>
<br>
all the best, Don<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
all the best, Don<br>
-- <br>
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School,
Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a><br>
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey
CA 93943-5000 USA <a href="tel:%2B1.831.656.2149" value="+18316562149" target="_blank">+1.831.656.2149</a><br>
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy
robotics <a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a><br>
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<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
<br>
Tony Parisi <a href="mailto:tparisi@gmail.com" target="_blank">tparisi@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>Founder, Third Eye <a href="http://www.thirdeye.gl/" target="_blank">http://www.thirdeye.gl/</a><br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><br><br>Tony Parisi <a href="mailto:tparisi@gmail.com" target="_blank">tparisi@gmail.com</a><br></div><div>Founder, Third Eye <a href="http://www.thirdeye.gl/" target="_blank">http://www.thirdeye.gl/</a><br></div>Follow me on Twitter! <a href="http://twitter.com/auradeluxe" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/auradeluxe</a><br><div>Read my blog at <a href="http://www.tonyparisi.com/" target="_blank">http://www.tonyparisi.com/</a><br></div>Learn WebGL <a href="http://learningwebgl.com/" target="_blank">http://learningwebgl.com/</a><br><div><div>Mobile 415.902.8002<br></div><div>Skype auradeluxe<br></div><br>Read my books! <i><br></i><i><i>Programming 3D Applications in HTML5 and WebGL<br><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Applications-HTML5-WebGL-Visualization/dp/1449362966" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Applications-HTML5-WebGL-Visualization/dp/1449362966</a><br></i>WebGL, Up and Running</i><br>
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/dp/144932357X" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/dp/144932357X</a><br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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