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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Hi
Lauren<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Let
me interpret in my own words, ok?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>That
means, we have got twins.<span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thank you Christoph,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think you are narrowing things down quite nicely. All of this
stuff becomes exponentially more intricate as we more forward, but maybe that's
what keeps it interesting.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>a)
It needs to be defined a communication protocol (or protocols) that can be used
by any multiuser VR/AR technology and the whole 3D universe agrees to it<span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The Web3D Consortium was the first organization to have any role
in establishing open standards for 3D over the Web. As such, the Consortium has
always been a leader, and should continue beating that path in order to remain
relevant IMO.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>b)
In X3D/X3DOM (generally spoken in declarative 3D), we need some new nodes -
something like a "game engine"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>KR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Christoph<span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I probably wouldn't exactly compare it to a "game
engine", because that would seem very application-specific, but I'd
certainly call for a more easily implementable framework for physics simulation.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>These two points are of high priority, at least as far as Office
Towers' needs are. Other things come to mind as well, notably some issues with overlapping
transparencies (for example, if you are looking at moving clouds through a tree
you'd see what I mean), but I am not sure if that is the results of standards
or browser implementation. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>And let's not forget about avatars. A lot of work has been done
in that regard, but avatars are such a difficult and crucial aspect, that much
more attention is needed. For us, at the moment, it appears that our
implementation choices are either too little or too much. For example, on the
one end, gestures are limited and unnatural, while on the other end too complex
and refined for large multiuser worlds. Unless I am missing something, there's
little in between, and there are no standard protocol for interacting with
avatars. We'd also like to see a more linear upgrade path for avatars as well, eventually
leading to standardized and portable gestures, including facial, but only as needed
and desirable. Imagine a sort of Level Of Details (LOD) for avatars. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Now that is a long wish list isn't it..? ;)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Cheers, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Lauren<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Gesendet:</span></b><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> Dienstag, 28.
April 2015 um 23:45 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> GLG <x3d-public@3dnpvei.com><br>
<b>An:</b> x3d-public@web3d.org<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] A note on standardization.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><br>
We've had this conversation countless times before, and I suspect we'll
continue to have it for as long as people want to invent their own wheel. Until
standards are finally achieved that is, standards that everyone can agree and
build on, if that is ever going to be possible. But IMO the discussion should
be more about how virtual worlds connect to each other independently of their
inner workings, and how avatars can travel between worlds, not how each
multiuser system is being implemented. We built the X3Daemon client-server MU
system (re: x3daemon.com) with the design goal that it can be massively scaled to
several thousands of users sharing the same world (for urban areas, world
events, live virtual concerts, etc), and then repeating that process throughout
hundreds if not thousands of worlds. A lot of forethoughts need to go into any
proposed 'standards', to ensure that they are open and flexible enough to carry
VR much into the future, and that is way beyond the scope of any particular
system. Otherwise, we'd only have closed MU systems that can't 'talk' to each
other, and avatars will not function out of their respective home worlds, when
the goal should really be to allow divergent technologies to work together.<br>
<br>
Getting back to X3daemon just to give an example, we have to understand the
fact that a large number of servers can be needed to support one single busy
world, and that necessitates the ability for avatars to seamlessly move from
one server to another within that world. Likewise, when the same avatar goes to
another world, the avatar's 'state' needs to be maintained. Easy enough if you
are still running off of the same server, but if you're not, then
server-to-server connections become necessary as well. And that's pretty much
just the tip of the iceberg. Factor in the need for vehicles to carry loads of
avatars across strange worlds, with their identities, luggages and carry-ons,
and we're in for a lot of fun. Just trying to make a long story short, but
somebody's got to do it, somebody will be doing it. It is inextricable. Cheers,
Lauren<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: x3d-public [mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org] On Behalf Of Christoph
Valentin<br>
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 12:48 AM<br>
To: doug sanden<br>
Cc: x3d-public@web3d.org<br>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] A note on standardization.<br>
<br>
Doing the networking outside the scene is way not sufficient.<br>
<br>
If you want to use a model from a 3rd party (e.g. a locomotive), you are not
interested in the details of the implementation. The locomotive should provide
a generic interface to be added to the scene, but the networking should be
hidden within the locomotive.<br>
<br>
If I'm a scene author or the author of a web page I'm really not interested in
all the details of the models I'm using.<br>
<br>
Just an opinion<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. April 2015 um 05:30 Uhr<br>
Von: "doug sanden" <highaspirations@hotmail.com><br>
An: x3d-public@web3d.org<br>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] A note on standardization.<br>
<br>
If you have a land line with modem, and you modem has a no-ip setting, then you
can host your 'game server' at home by registering a (free) sub domain at
noip.com and steering your modem to it. This will allow your modem to update
noip when it's dynamic ip changes.<br>
-doug<br>
<br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
From: highaspirations@hotmail.com<br>
To: x3d-public@web3d.org<br>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 20:55:00 -0600<br>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] A note on standardization.<br>
<br>
Sai allows you to change a scene from ouside, and register callbacks on scene
events. If all the web3d browsers support sai, then the networking could be
done outside the web3d browsers.<br>
Besides nodejs and php, python looks easy to do a socket server (when I google
python socket server I see cute programs). You could configure the server to
introduce peers for peer2peer, or keep the server in the middle of the
communications.<br>
The dis node uses udp which can broadcast but isn't guaranteed to deliver - its
good for single packet ephemeral updates such as mouse coordinates. If you miss
one mouse update no problem. For guaranteed delivery tcp should be used, such
as sai type updates.<br>
X3dom can send an ajax request for an update to the server, which can stall
reply until there is news. As soon as it gets the reply x3dom can ask for the
next update. More precisely something just outside x3dom would do this,
equivalent to sai.<br>
Going the other direction, when a client has news, it should send it to a
different port on the server, so a client can be sending and receiving at the
same time. This simplifies your code.<br>
-doug<br>
<br>
> From: christoph.valentin@gmx.at<br>
> To: ALONZOTG@verizon.net<br>
> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 02:15:04 +0200<br>
> CC: x3d-public@web3d.org<br>
> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] A note on standardization.<br>
><br>
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. April 2015 um 00:41 Uhr<br>
> Von: "Alan Grimes" <ALONZOTG@verizon.net><br>
> An: "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin@gmx.at><br>
> Cc: "x3d-public@web3d.org" <x3d-public@web3d.org><br>
> Betreff: Re: Aw: [x3d-public] A note on standardization.<br>
> Christoph Valentin wrote:<br>
> > [Christoph:] I'm not sure if I'm aware of the whole 3D universe, but
according to my knowledge there are at least two standards that stick to
declarative 3D principles: X3D and X3DOM.<br>
> > When I use the term "Web3D Browser", I mean "anything
that sticks to declarative 3D principles according to Web3D Consortium".<br>
> > My dream is to have concurrent Web3D Browsers in one and the same
multiuser session (sharing the same state).<br>
> > I.e.: Users "Alice", "Bob" and
"Charlie" are meeting in a scene. "Alice" uses X3DOM within
Mozilla, "Bob" uses "X3DOM" within IE and
"Charlie" uses Octaga Player.<br>
> > In this case, at least the communication protocol must be standardized,
better having the interface standardized, too (i.e. the network sensor), to
ease the automatic translation of models for use within different Web3D
Browsers.<br>
> > I think, a minimum of standardization is necessary, if we want to
achieve this goal.<br>
><br>
> Okay, the way I see that happening is by means of an intermediary<br>
> server. I think I saw a standard called "DIS: Distributed
Interractive<br>
> Simulation" or something, The client would be relatively thin, just a<br>
> graphics terminal to a simulation run, or synchronized by a server which<br>
> may be linked through DIS to a broader network of servers.<br>
><br>
> The main issue is being able to write client scripting code that can<br>
> dynamically update the scene displayed based on external events and be<br>
> able to detect user interactions with the local presentation and relay<br>
> those updates back to the server. This functionality will be necessarily<br>
> built into the web browser, all other functionality can be done with<br>
> Jquery or other existing standards, ie a simple re-use of existing<br>
> dynamic web page technology.<br>
><br>
> [Christoph:]<br>
> Good point. I'm still not sure on which horse I should bet (also depends
on the application).<br>
> When I started my railway simulation experiments, I had a look at the
"DIS" component of X3D.<br>
> Please correct me, if I'm wrong, but in my humble opinion, the DIS
component is more specialized<br>
> than the network sensor. From looking at the specification in the X3D
standard, I decided, it would<br>
> not be easy to use it for 1-dimensional movement "along the
track" of a railway.<br>
> The network sensor, on the other hand, was more general, what means, I had
to do more implementation<br>
> work to use it in my scene.<br>
> Another issue: afaik, the DIS "protocol" (PDU definitions) is
specified by the IEEE, where the network sensor is still open to standardize
the protocol at the IETF (IETF is more "open" than IEEE)<br>
> Looking forward to the answers of the community<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> IQ is a measure of how stupid you feel.<br>
><br>
> Powers are not rights.<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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