<p dir="ltr">Archival yet vibrant and relevant? Books and microfiche are archival. What's important is being able to take the vibrant and relevant stuff and convert it to archival format in a mostly lossless fashion.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I can't even get something with random motion, prototypes and shaders working together on a mac, so... I can get shaders working in x3dom, vrml scripting and prototypes working in x3d (instant player). And then I want to throw random Geo motion in on top of that (bubbles following you around in the wind as you swoop around the earth)? Perhaps X3D or I have too big of bite. I've been thinking about how to implement application (not content--constraining the user like a game or physics might) security as well...</p>
<p dir="ltr">Suggestions for a mac player are welcome. Does all the above work together on pcs? I have x3dom, cobweb, instant player, freewrl, xj3d, and even bs contact, if I care to open safari. I think the point is that windows/the desktop is lessening in relevance and this has left people scrambling. Let's see X3D-Edit on mobile RSN.</p>
<div class="gmail_quot<blockquote class=" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Michael, X3D community,<br>
<br>
I think you raise some very good and valid points here. X3D is at
a point where patchwork solutions will not be enough to remain
relevant. Hence in my opinion its not just about nodes and
encodings that need to be re-considered, but also some of the
fundamental concepts.<br>
<br>
I hope that this discussion (I tried to encourage as well with my
mail) has not died but is continued on the member mailing list.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Kristian<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Being not a deeply technical computer graphics person, but being a
member of the Board as a Professional Member representative, I
wanted to voice my opinion regarding the direction of X3D 4.0 as I
interpret it from Don's post below.<br>
<br>
To remain a viable and robust 3D standard for years to come, and
to in fact be an archival 3D standard, X3D must remain relevant.
When I say relevant, that means to be easy to understand, to take
advantage of current technology trends and to be widely adopted.
Whereas X3D has weathered many ups and downs in the 3D industry
over the past 25 years, outlasting numerous 3D files formats and
initiatives, it is a completely different environment now. <br>
<br>
The democratization of 3D content is upon us, fueled by decades of
video game technology providing the impetus for better and better
software tools, higher and higher performance graphics hardware,
and a culture that now demands 3D experiences both within and
without of the video gaming experience. These forces have
permeated the mobile industry, which is rapidly becoming the
hardware platform of choice. WebGL has enabled 3D within browsers
without a plugin, making the browser an ideal distribution vehicle
for 3D data and content, regardless of the device. Soon all
mobile devices will be 3D content generators, thanks to built in
3D cameras, and virtual reality displays, thanks to Cardboard and
GearVR (and others to come). <br>
<br>
In my opinion, X3D cannot wait out the 3D storm this time, because
forces influencing this industry are going to fundamentally change
how 3D fits into society, (think 3D printing, VR videos, etc.).
X3D must adapt to meet this change, and with the web being the
ideal distribution vehicle, X3D must adapt to the HTML
environment. Don's post to me speaks instead to a stay the course
strategy, maintaining paradigms in contradistinction to HTML.
There are key concepts in X3D which clash with HTML, and if not
reconciled, this will be to X3D's detriment and potential road to
irrelevance. Why? Simple: Compare the number of web developers
to the number of X3D developers; the difference is several orders
of magnitude! This is the target audience of X3D, and they will
not tolerate learning 2 different ways to do many of the functions
necessary to create a dynamic 3D environment. Some may say that
different vertical industries will create their own proprietary
applications and that web development is irrelevant, and I argue
that while that is true, the volume and value of those
applications pale in comparison to web applications within any
industry. Being part of one of the biggest vertical industries
(healthcare) as an IT executive, I can tell you that off-the-shelf
technology based on the web/cloud is the preferred choice. Web
applications are easier to maintain, easier to implement and
easier to have personnel trained on their use. <br>
<br>
Many may argue that this approach can endanger backwards
compatibility, which is critically important for an <b><i>archival</i></b>
standard, but to that I say that members of the Consortium are
very smart and capable of doing things that people say never could
happen, like having polygons and voxels living together (gasp!) in
the same scene. They can develop converters for old content so
that 20 year old content still runs on the newest browsers.<br>
<br>
Many may say that web developers aren't our target audience, which
to that I say, are you interested in protecting some academic
institutions and a small portion of industrial applications from
from vendor lock-in, or do you want to protect the majority of
content developers, consumers and the majority of industrial
applications from this lock-in (whose savings would then be passed
on to the consumer)? I choose the latter.<br>
<br>
The way forward does not lack suggestions: Leonard Daly has done a
significant amount of thinking and work on providing a vision of a
possible X3D 4.0 that blends well with HTML concepts, Tony Parisi
has developed GLAM,
another "declarative language for creating 3D web content" and
Kristian Sons' post on November 26 with subject: "XML3D 5.0 and
X3D V4.0" (XML3D being another declarative 3D web language)
provides great lessons learned
on some ways that X3D can adapt HTML concepts. The Consortium can
co-opt all the best from these suggestions to provide a phenomenal
3D standard for the future.<br>
<br>
I have been involved in some form with the Consortium for 20
years, from the VeRGe meetups organized by Linda Jacobson and
Timothy Childs in the 90s, to founding a startup using VRML
technology in 2000, to representing the Consortium at SIGGRAPH and
Professional Members on the Board for the last several years. I
want the Consortium to succeed in its original mission to provide
an open, ISO ratified, royalty free, archival standard that is
like an HTML for 3D on the web. To achieve that mission, the
Consortium needs to make X3D a web native language.<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
<br>
Michael Aratow, MD<br>
Board of Directors, Web3D Consortium<br>
Chief Medical Information Officer, San Mateo Medical Center<br>
CEO, VRecover<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">Subject:
</th>
<td>Re: [x3d-public] [x3d] Ideas for discussion during V4.0
Concepts: Name scopes and node name conflicts</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">Date: </th>
<td>Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:28:26 -0800</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">From: </th>
<td>Don Brutzman <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank"><brutzman@nps.edu></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">Organization:
</th>
<td>Naval Postgraduate School</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">To: </th>
<td>Roy Walmsley <a href="mailto:roy.walmsley@ntlworld.com" target="_blank"><roy.walmsley@ntlworld.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">CC: </th>
<td>X3D Graphics public mailing list <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a></a>,
X3D Graphics Working Group <a href="mailto:x3d@web3d.org" target="_blank"><x3d@web3d.org></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[cc: x3d-public]<br>
<br>
Thanks for the excellent leading questions and deep exploration in
today's X3D working group teleconference.<br>
<br>
Questions and my first-cut responses follow.<br>
<br>
On 11/18/2015 2:40 AM, Roy Walmsley wrote:<br>
> Some things to consider and/or discuss re X3D V4.0 during X3D
WG meeting.<br>
><br>
> ·What is DOM?<br>
<br>
DOM is the simplest possible API for accessing and traversing an
HTML/XML tree structure, with accessors typically getting/setting
nodes and attributes using string values.<br>
<br>
DOM also includes several event models that are associated with
navigating a tree, and passing values from one node to another.<br>
<br>
DOM bindings have been formally specified for JavaScript and
Java. No doubt a number of libraries exist in other languages as
well.<br>
<br>
The essential stability of the data structures, and the potential
flexibility of the event-passing mechanisms, are the key to DOM's
long-running stability, popularity and effectiveness.<br>
<br>
> ·What specification(s) should we be normatively considering?
(<a href="http://www.w3.org/TR" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/TR</a>)<br>
<br>
DOM level 3 has been a stable W3C Recommendation for 10 years<br>
<a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core</a><br>
<br>
DOM behavior is central to HTML5 design.<br>
<br>
3 Semantics, structure, and APIs of HTML documents<br>
<a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/dom.html#dom" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/dom.html#dom</a><br>
<br>
DOM level 4 is where DOM refinements are heading. The editors
include critical individuals in this long evolution. Based on
current status, it is pretty far down the W3C Process towards
final approval.<br>
<br>
W3C DOM4, W3C Proposed Recommendation 6 October 2015<br>
<a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/dom/" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/TR/dom/</a><br>
<br>
An important working document, but not normative, is the "DOM
Living Standard" by the whatwg<br>
<a href="https://dom.spec.whatwg.org" target="_blank">https://dom.spec.whatwg.org</a><br>
<br>
Of course "living" standard/document is a euphemism that actually
means "unstable" or "nonstandard."<br>
<br>
I believe our strategy should be:<br>
<br>
a. Let HTML5 be HTML5 and let X3D be X3D. Each is well defined.<br>
b. Let X3D v4 add minimal general capabilities that provide a
clean elegant stable alignment with HTML5 and DOM level 4.<br>
c. The essence of this alignment is event passing between HTML5
DOM and X3D event graph.<br>
d. Do not add any functionality to X3D that breaks the current
event model, or might have to change in the future when further
DOM embellishments occur.<br>
<br>
Suggest that the next question to explore is:<br>
<br>
- What is SAI? What are differences between "internal" and
"external" SAI?<br>
<br>
In short, SAI reconciled internal event passing and external event
passing with the series of X3D API specifications.<br>
<br>
No longer needed: External Authoring Interface (EAI).
Nevertheless interesting (and possibly helpful) approaches were
specified there.<br>
<br>
> ·How does DOM compare to SAI? (<a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/introduction.html" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/introduction.html</a>
and <a href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-2/V3.3/Part02/concepts.html#General" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-2/V3.3/Part02/concepts.html#General</a>).
Are they conceptually different?<br>
<br>
Comparing/contrasting each of these approaches with DOM APIs for
tree manipulations and event passing will be fruitful.<br>
<br>
X3DOM (and presumably Cobweb) provide existence proofs that event
passing between each is possible and can be pretty simple.<br>
<br>
Key X3D constructs: ROUTEs, Inline IMPORT/EXPORT.<br>
<br>
Also important parts of event-model review (identified by Joe) are
Script directOut functionality, the notion of a render frame (time
step) and event cascades, loop-breaking rule, etc.<br>
<br>
Since many events between X3D and DOM will be related to user
interaction, closely aligned topics are javascript callbacks,
browser render loops, etc. etc.<br>
<br>
Our eventual X3D v4 specification solution will define DOM
constructs with equivalent 2-way functionality.<br>
<br>
> Should SAI be renamed / substituted by DOM?<br>
<br>
No. Such a change would likely break X3D event semantics, either
now or in the future. That outcome is not acceptable.<br>
<br>
Comparisons between SAI, EAI and DOM will let us assess what needs
to be specified to align X3D and DOM.<br>
<br>
> ·What does the DOM say about namespaces? How have MathML and
SVG been incorporated?<br>
><br>
> ·Can we point to examples that illustrate difficulties?<br>
><br>
> ·What practical steps should we take to progress?<br>
<br>
Worthy questions deserving further elaboration. We need to
include CSS and Javascript in that review as well.<br>
<br>
If/when we do this correctly, X3D rises to the level of being an
effective addition that integrates well within the Open Web
Platform (OWP).<br>
<a href="http://www.w3.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform</a><br>
<br>
Precise terminology and descriptions are critical ingredients for
effective design. Thanks for all due diligence on these central
topics.<br>
<br>
all the best, Don<br>
-- <br>
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></a><br>
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
<a href="tel:%2B1.831.656.2149" value="+18316562149" target="_blank">+1.831.656.2149</a><br>
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics <a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank"><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></a><br>
<br>
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<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Kristian Sons
Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz GmbH, DFKI
Agenten und Simulierte Realität
Campus, Geb. D 3 2, Raum 0.77
66123 Saarbrücken, Germany
Phone: <a href="tel:%2B49%20681%2085775-3833" value="+49681857753833" target="_blank">+49 681 85775-3833</a>
Phone: <a href="tel:%2B49%20681%20302-3833" value="+496813023833" target="_blank">+49 681 302-3833</a>
Fax: <a href="tel:%2B49%20681%2085775%E2%80%932235" value="+49681857752235" target="_blank">+49 681 85775–2235</a>
<a href="mailto:kristian.sons@dfki.de" target="_blank">kristian.sons@dfki.de</a>
<a href="http://www.xml3d.org" target="_blank">http://www.xml3d.org</a>
Geschäftsführung: Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
Dr. Walter Olthoff
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
_______________________________________________________________________________</pre>
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