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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Doug,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your reply. The Consortium has known this time would be
coming for at least 2 years, probably closer to 4. As a standards
organization, the Consortium should not be pushing something new;
however, there is considerable investment in the past and that has
been one of the strengths of X3D. Code from 20 years ago can still
be run.<br>
<br>
From everything that I have seen in 20 years working with HTML;
applications that are going to run in the browser, need to work
with and interact with the DOM. I am happy to consider any
implementation that successfully does so. <br>
<br>
Right now work in the Consortium is on polishing V3.3. As far as I
can tell, the only active work on X3D with HTML is work I am doing
and occasional reviews by the X3D Working Group. <br>
<br>
It is important to pay attention to what the marketplace is
developing, but the proposals coming out (GLAM, A-Frame, etc.) do
not support X3D or any structures from X3D. I believe that there
is a lot of maturation already for parts of the environment. The
Consortium could play a very strong role in steering the direction
of declarative 3D. We will have no role if we just sit on the
sidelines and watch.<br>
<br>
In the past the Consortium succeeded by lasting longer than anyone
else. This time is different because the organizations involves
are bigger (Google, Facebook), more diverse (Mozilla, Hollywood
studios, startups in San Francisco, Silicon Valley, Los Angeles,
San Diego; just to name the major centers in California), and
multiple industries (3D printing, entertainment, healthcare and
wellness, industrial maintenance). There is no lasting out the
others now.<br>
<br>
Leonard Daly<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
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<div>From my perspective^, V4 has had to 'burn the candle from
both ends' - discover what's possible/doable/practical in
html/webgl while moving x3d in that direction. So being too
quick/early with a V4 may be sub-optimal. Maybe V4 is the
wrong name. For this stage of the game.</div>
<div>What might help is starting a new series of standards from
1.0 ie webx3dA 1.0, webx3dB 1.0 with A being the X3Dom
style and B being the cobweb style. That would allow for a C,
D or anything else that comes a long. Then if/when the world
chooses a winner, when the dust settles a bit more, rename it.</div>
<div>In other words, I think you could/should be
capturing things as they mature naturally, rather than
steering/forcing the whole process. Relax a bit.</div>
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt;">-Doug</span><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt;">^about me:</span></div>
I'm a self-declared pseudo expert in VR: I follow in others
footsteps and try and catch on.
<div>* I've worked in spaghetti C native code in project freeWRL
for 6 years</div>
<div>* taught game programming course in DX/C++ 6 week</div>
<div>* animated an industrial simulator in .wrl for a year</div>
<div>* modeled a historical townsite project in blender,
exported to x3d for flux and kml for googleEarth and ported
x3d to x3dom and cobweb :</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://sites.google.com/site/airdriehistoricaltour/"
id="LPlnk823250"
title="https://sites.google.com/site/airdriehistoricaltour/
Ctrl+Click or tap to follow the link">https://sites.google.com/site/airdriehistoricaltour/</a></div>
<div>And currently working toward accommodating HMD emulators
and desktop configurations in freewrl (still native/C code,
V3.3).</div>
<div>Before that, 2 decades of photogrammetric systems
engineering and stereo machine vision algorithms.<br>
<div id="LPBorder_GT_14525175782870.5043380511924624"
style="margin-bottom: 20px; overflow: auto; width: 100%;">
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style="width: 90%; position: relative; overflow: auto;
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colspan="2" style="vertical-align: top; position:
relative; padding: 0px; display: table-cell;">
<div id="LPTitle_14525175782830.6535951665136963"
style="top: 0px; color: rgb(0, 120, 215);
font-weight: normal; font-size: 21px; font-family:
wf_segoe-ui_light, 'Segoe UI Light', 'Segoe WP
Light', 'Segoe UI', 'Segoe WP', Tahoma, Arial,
sans-serif; line-height: 21px;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
id="LPUrlAnchor_14525175782840.47243885113857687"
href="https://sites.google.com/site/airdriehistoricaltour/"
target="_blank" style="text-decoration: none;">Airdrie
Historical Virtual Tour</a></div>
<div
id="LPMetadata_14525175782840.04527225182391703"
style="margin: 10px 0px 16px; color: rgb(102, 102,
102); font-weight: normal; font-family:
wf_segoe-ui_normal, 'Segoe UI', 'Segoe WP',
Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
line-height: 14px;">
sites.google.com</div>
<div
id="LPDescription_14525175782860.12393994187004864"
style="display: block; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);
font-weight: normal; font-family:
wf_segoe-ui_normal, 'Segoe UI', 'Segoe WP',
Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
line-height: 20px; max-height: 100px; overflow:
hidden;">
Airdrie Historical Virtual Tour - 3D rendering in
googleEarth, virtual reality and webgl of early
Airdrie,AB townsite, with photos placed</div>
</td>
</tr>
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</table>
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000" face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><b>From:</b> x3d-public
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"><x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org></a> on behalf of David
Murphy <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:d.murphy@cs.ucc.ie"><d.murphy@cs.ucc.ie></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> January 11, 2016 5:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Leonard Daly<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3dom-users@lists.sourceforge.net">x3dom-users@lists.sourceforge.net</a>; X3D
Graphics public mailing list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Call to Progress on X3D
V4</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>hi Leonard,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I completely understand your frustration
with the situation.</div>
<div class="">Looking at things objectively I believe that
the recent phenomenal interest in VR has taken the
community by surprise. The X3D/VRML community has been
comfortable operating at a particular pace, however
circumstances are overtaking us.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I was preparing the first lecture of my
Semester 2 VR class over the weekend, and was taken
aback by the sheer number of startup (or should it be
upstart) attempts at developing a ‘VR’ language/platform
(proprietary or open).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This ‘new’ VR industry is either unaware of
X3D or has chosen to bypass, for whatever reason, the
standard.</div>
<div class="">If this isn’t addressed soon X3D may become
irrelevant, which none of us want to see.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I think one of the fundamental challenges
facing the X3D WG and community of users and developers,
is simply the lack of awareness of the standard in the
VR industry.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I’m not a member of the WG, however as a
member of the X3D community I genuinely appreciate the
efforts of the WG, and so I will do whatever I can to
promote/champion X3D.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">cheers</div>
<div class="">rgds Dave<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto;
text-align:start; text-indent:0px;
text-transform:none; white-space:normal;
widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; word-wrap:break-word">
__________________________<br class="">
David Murphy<br class="">
<br class="">
Department of Computer Science<br class="">
Room 1.77<br class="">
Western Gateway Building<br class="">
University College Cork<br class="">
Ireland<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
e: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:d.murphy@cs.ucc.ie" class="">d.murphy@cs.ucc.ie</a><br
class="">
map: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://bit.ly/WGB_UCC" class="">http://bit.ly/WGB_UCC</a><br
class="">
w: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://multimedia.ucc.ie" class="">http://multimedia.ucc.ie</a><br
class="">
w: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.imclab.ucc.ie" class="">http://www.imclab.ucc.ie</a><br
class="">
w: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cs.ucc.ie/staff/dmurphy.html"
class="">http://www.cs.ucc.ie/staff/dmurphy.html</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 11 Jan 2016, at 06:04, Leonard Daly
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:web3d@realism.com" class="">web3d@realism.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">Last week I sent a message to the
X3D WG about my concerns on lack of progress for
developing a V4 specification. This message is
expanding the reach of the original message and
providing additional requested material,
specifically examples of situations where I
would want and/or expect X3D to run in a
browser. The list of examples is being expanded
as developments occur.<br class="">
<br class="">
The marketplace is making significant progress
in commercialization of virtual and augmented
reality. There is no standard format for
expressing 3D content. The marketplace will
choose at least one format and it will not
likely be X3D. Already there are alternative
markup languages emerging that attempt to do
what X3D has been doing for decades: create an
HTML like language for 3D graphics. GLAM is an
example proposed by Tony Parisi, and most
recently Mozilla’s A-frame, released 3 weeks
ago, both attempting to speak in the language of
web developers to bring VR/AR to the browser.<br
class="">
<br class="">
I am very frustrated in the lack of progress of
the Working Group in developing a specification
for X3D V4. There are number of issues that have
been raised about the fundamentals of designs of
X3D that appear to be incompatible with an
HTML/DOM environment. A partial list includes
the following:<br class="">
* name-scope handling<br class="">
* scripting<br class="">
* interfaces to the nodes and fields through the
DOM API<br class="">
* event handling<br class="">
* profile structure and contents<br class="">
* newly supported formats (geometry and media)<br
class="">
<br class="">
Examples of X3D/X3DOM: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.realism.com/x3d-v4-issue-examples"
class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.realism.com/x3d-v4-issue-examples">http://tools.realism.com/x3d-v4-issue-examples</a></a><br
class="">
There are other concerns about event model that
are not expressed in these examples mostly due
to being unable to create an example that
clearly shows the problem. It does exists and
you may see some of that in sporadic or jerky
movement in the animation examples using X3DOM.<br
class="">
<br class="">
I have a concept specification that is getting
updated at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-v40"
class="">
http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-v40</a>.
The was first sent to the X3D WG in November and
has had a couple of other discussions.<br
class="">
<br class="">
My specific technical concerns with the
specification are listed in the Author's Notes
at
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-v40/authors-notes"
class="">http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-v40/authors-notes</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
Most importantly, it is not clear to me who the
WG believes is the target audience for the
specification and how the specification will
meet that audience’s needs.<br class="">
<br class="">
As Co-Chair on Sabbatical and current member of
the WG, I need to take some responsibility for
not getting there. I have been working on
developing a new specification and the beginning
of an open-source web-based application for
building scenes in the new specification. The
web application is called “Basx3D - 3D the HTML
Way”. I have posted an article about it’s
initial release -
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://realism.com/blog/basx3d" class="">http://realism.com/blog/basx3d</a>.
This post and one describing the X3D V4 proposal
are publicly available.<br class="">
<br class="">
The application is targeted at web developers
who do not need to know the details of creating
an X3D by hand. The concept was based on Unreal
Engine and Unity editors. I will be continuing
development of both the application and proposal
on a frequent and regular basis. Basx3D and the
proposed specification function as a two-way
development effort with Basx3D reflecting the
proposal and providing implementation
information and experience back to the
specification.<br class="">
<br class="">
Although outside of its scope, the WG must be
aware of the audience to which the standard is
written, and the audience to which the standard
is being promoted. This concept is crucial to
the future adoption of X3D and should ultimately
be agreed upon by the BOD, but the WG needs to
understand and follow this strategy which will
ultimately influence prioritization of WG
activity.<br class="">
<br class="">
I am firmly committed to an open, royalty free,
ISO ratified standard that communicates 3D data
and its behaviors over networks, especially the
dominant global network which is the internet,
and which universally supports HTML5. I don’t
want to see the decades of work and passion that
have been invested in the standards maintained
and promoted by the Web3D Consortium relegated
to the corridors of obscurity. Because of many
trends in software and hardware, a nexus of
opportunity has been created like never before
of which we can take advantage to catapult the
Consortium’s standards to significant global
adoption. Let’s not miss this chance!<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Leonard Daly<br class="">
Basx3D and X3D V4 Specification Proposal Author<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
In Full Support<br class="">
Mike Aratow<br class="">
Treasurer, Web3D Consortium<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
-- <br class="">
*Leonard Daly*<br class="">
X3D Co-Chair<br class="">
Cloud Consultant<br class="">
President, Daly Realism - /Creating the Future/<br
class="">
<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br
class="">
x3d-public mailing list<br class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" class="">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br
class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
x3d-public mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<font class="tahoma,arial,helvetica san serif" color="#333366">
<font size="+1"><b>Leonard Daly</b></font><br>
X3D Co-Chair<br>
Cloud Consultant<br>
President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i>
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