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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Doug,<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:CY1PR14MB0567192C54DFC02452934091B6CA0@CY1PR14MB0567.namprd14.prod.outlook.com"
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OK thanks Leonard.
<div>-Doug</div>
<div>more..</div>
<div>I don't think I can help - not a dom or california expert.</div>
<div>more..</div>
<div>But I gather no or not-enough key players have submitted
what they are doing for consideration as a standard ie X3Dom
is a proprietary format.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
That is one of the issues. No one has submitted their work; however,
the X3D WG did decide that X3DOM was a prototype implementation a
couple of years ago.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CY1PR14MB0567192C54DFC02452934091B6CA0@CY1PR14MB0567.namprd14.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper"
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<div>That -and the proliferation of other formats like GLAM- may
indicated investor desire for prorpietary / copyright
/patented technology with the upside potential of 'lock-in'
and 'switching costs'. Lets call this the LOCKIN hypothesis
for format proliferation.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
There is always that investor desire. The users need to fight back
against it demanding open standards. That has happened many times,
even including Microsoft Office.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CY1PR14MB0567192C54DFC02452934091B6CA0@CY1PR14MB0567.namprd14.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper"
style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div>If LOCKIN is the motivation, then one thing web3d.org can
do is sell proprietary lock-in formats. Take v3.3 and scramble
it through a translator/generator so it looks different, and
sell it as a proprietary format, with lockin/switching costs
for users, pleasing to investors. Except _keep_ the
scrambler/translator/generator pattern. So that X3D files can
be quickly translated into the proprietary format.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Not really at all. The entire foundation of the Consortium is that
it is an open standard. "Selling" a lock-in format goes against the
fundamental charter, by-laws, and philosophy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CY1PR14MB0567192C54DFC02452934091B6CA0@CY1PR14MB0567.namprd14.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
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<div>more..</div>
<div>Likewise if you break out the details for all the issues,
even though we may not be dom experts, we may come up with
ideas. </div>
<div>For example Creative Strategy (a book) shows how to break a
problem/issue into elements. Then look in other domains for
solutions to each element. Then pick a creative combination of
the element solutions into a whole solution.</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://sites.google.com/site/airdrieinnovationinstitute/creative-strategy"
id="LPlnk417717" style="font-size: 12pt;"
title="http://sites.google.com/site/airdrieinnovationinstitute/creative-strategy
Ctrl+Click
or tap to follow the link">http://sites.google.com/site/airdrieinnovationinstitute/creative-strategy</a><br>
</div>
<div>more..</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Most of my philosophy is written up at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-v40/authors-notes">http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-v40/authors-notes</a><br>
<br>
The specific case of DOM vs. not-DOM is that DOM is the structure
and API of web documents. Applications are moving to the web. There
will always be a place for stand-alone applications, but the biggest
interest will be in documents and content viewable in a browser. X3D
content DOM accessible allows more people to work in more creative
ways integrating 3D content into their application in a manner they
already know. <br>
<br>
To give a related example, I have seen the following question asked
many times (in various forms and forums):<br>
<br>
"What should I learn, jQuery or JavaScript?"<br>
<br>
If your 3D content works with jQuery, people won't ask "Why should I
learn another API?"<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CY1PR14MB0567192C54DFC02452934091B6CA0@CY1PR14MB0567.namprd14.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper"
style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div>For example if you could break out for us the elements of
why DOM integration is desired. I gather the cobweb v3.3
approach isn't dom integrated. What's wrong with cobweb, and
what's so much better about x3dom, for example, and give
details of why one is popular in california, and the other
not. Then with the elements, we can look and see if there's
something inbetween.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I have not had a chance to really study cobweb. I don't think there
is anything wrong with it, but it does not suit my needs at this
time because it does not integrate with the DOM. It's not that X3DOM
is popular in CA and cobweb is not -- X3DOM has been around a lot
longer and has greater exposure. It's that 3D and VR are really big
things here in CA in the tech, entertainment, and other communities.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CY1PR14MB0567192C54DFC02452934091B6CA0@CY1PR14MB0567.namprd14.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper"
style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div>For example being able to do movietexture may be easier
with dom integration. OK but then could the node-specific
implementation of a non-dom x3d include dom functionality? Or
perhaps you want to be able to do jQuery. OK could there be a
special xQuery for x3d, and jQuery delegates to it? And so
forth.</div>
<div>The more breakout of the issues you give, the more chance a
non-dom, non-california expert can chime in.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
DOM is a technical and business choice, not a geographic one.<br>
<br>
<br>
Leonard Daly<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CY1PR14MB0567192C54DFC02452934091B6CA0@CY1PR14MB0567.namprd14.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
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href="http://sites.google.com/site/airdrieinnovationinstitute/creative-strategy"
target="_blank" style="text-decoration: none;">Creative
Strategy - Airdrie Innovation Institute</a></div>
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Prosperity through productivity, productivity
through innovation, innovation through culture,
culture through aggregated and disseminated
insights and processes, in Airdrie Alberta Canada</div>
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Strategy - Airdrie Innovation Institute</a></div>
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sites.google.com</div>
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line-height: 20px; max-height: 100px; overflow:
hidden;">
Prosperity through productivity, productivity
through innovation, innovation through culture,
culture through aggregated and disseminated
insights and processes, in Airdrie Alberta Canada</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000" face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><b>From:</b> x3d-public
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"><x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org></a> on behalf of
Leonard Daly <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:web3d@realism.com"><web3d@realism.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> January 11, 2016 7:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Call to Progress on X3D
V4</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Doug,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your reply. The Consortium has known this
time would be coming for at least 2 years, probably
closer to 4. As a standards organization, the Consortium
should not be pushing something new; however, there is
considerable investment in the past and that has been
one of the strengths of X3D. Code from 20 years ago can
still be run.<br>
<br>
>From everything that I have seen in 20 years working
with HTML; applications that are going to run in the
browser, need to work with and interact with the DOM. I
am happy to consider any implementation that
successfully does so.
<br>
<br>
Right now work in the Consortium is on polishing V3.3.
As far as I can tell, the only active work on X3D with
HTML is work I am doing and occasional reviews by the
X3D Working Group.
<br>
<br>
It is important to pay attention to what the marketplace
is developing, but the proposals coming out (GLAM,
A-Frame, etc.) do not support X3D or any structures from
X3D. I believe that there is a lot of maturation already
for parts of the environment. The Consortium could play
a very strong role in steering the direction of
declarative 3D. We will have no role if we just sit on
the sidelines and watch.<br>
<br>
In the past the Consortium succeeded by lasting longer
than anyone else. This time is different because the
organizations involves are bigger (Google, Facebook),
more diverse (Mozilla, Hollywood studios, startups in
San Francisco, Silicon Valley, Los Angeles, San Diego;
just to name the major centers in California), and
multiple industries (3D printing, entertainment,
healthcare and wellness, industrial maintenance). There
is no lasting out the others now.<br>
<br>
Leonard Daly<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size:12pt;
color:#000000; background-color:#FFFFFF;
font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<p><br>
</p>
<div>From my perspective^, V4 has had to 'burn the
candle from both ends' - discover what's
possible/doable/practical in html/webgl while moving
x3d in that direction. So being too quick/early with
a V4 may be sub-optimal. Maybe V4 is the wrong
name. For this stage of the game.</div>
<div>What might help is starting a new series of
standards from 1.0 ie webx3dA 1.0, webx3dB 1.0 with
A being the X3Dom style and B being the cobweb
style. That would allow for a C, D or anything else
that comes a long. Then if/when the world chooses a
winner, when the dust settles a bit more, rename it.</div>
<div>In other words, I think you could/should be
capturing things as they mature naturally, rather
than steering/forcing the whole process. Relax a
bit.</div>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt">-Doug</span><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt">^about me:</span></div>
I'm a self-declared pseudo expert in VR: I follow in
others footsteps and try and catch on.
<div>* I've worked in spaghetti C native code in
project freeWRL for 6 years</div>
<div>* taught game programming course in DX/C++ 6 week</div>
<div>* animated an industrial simulator in .wrl for a
year</div>
<div>* modeled a historical townsite project in
blender, exported to x3d for flux and kml
for googleEarth and ported x3d to x3dom and cobweb
:</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://sites.google.com/site/airdriehistoricaltour/"
id="LPlnk823250"
title="https://sites.google.com/site/airdriehistoricaltour/
Ctrl+Click or tap to follow the link">https://sites.google.com/site/airdriehistoricaltour/</a></div>
<div>And currently working toward accommodating HMD
emulators and desktop configurations in freewrl
(still native/C code, V3.3).</div>
<div>Before that, 2 decades of photogrammetric systems
engineering and stereo machine vision algorithms.<br>
<div
id="LPBorder_GT_14525175782870.5043380511924624"
style="margin-bottom:20px; overflow:auto;
width:100%" contenteditable="false">
<table
id="LPContainer_14525175782790.22431360138580203"
style="width:90%; overflow:auto;
padding-top:20px; padding-bottom:20px;
margin-top:20px; border-top-width:1px;
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border-bottom-width:1px;
border-bottom-style:dotted;
border-bottom-color:rgb(200,200,200);
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="border-spacing:0px" valign="top">
<td
id="TextCell_14525175782820.4312113730702549"
colspan="2" style="vertical-align:top;
padding:0px; display:table-cell">
<div
id="LPTitle_14525175782830.6535951665136963"
style=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
id="LPUrlAnchor_14525175782840.47243885113857687"
href="https://sites.google.com/site/airdriehistoricaltour/"
target="_blank"
style="text-decoration:none">Airdrie
Historical Virtual Tour</a></div>
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id="LPMetadata_14525175782840.04527225182391703"
style="margin:10px 0px 16px;
color:rgb(102,102,102);
font-weight:normal;
font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,'Segoe
UI','Segoe WP',Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif;
font-size:14px; line-height:14px">
sites.google.com</div>
<div
id="LPDescription_14525175782860.12393994187004864"
style="display:block;
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font-weight:normal;
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UI','Segoe WP',Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif;
font-size:14px; line-height:20px;
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Airdrie Historical Virtual Tour - 3D
rendering in googleEarth, virtual
reality and webgl of early Airdrie,AB
townsite, with photos placed</div>
</td>
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</div>
<br>
<br>
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<div><br>
<br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block;
width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b>
x3d-public
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"><x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org></a>
on behalf of David Murphy
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:d.murphy@cs.ucc.ie"><d.murphy@cs.ucc.ie></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> January 11, 2016 5:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Leonard Daly<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:x3dom-users@lists.sourceforge.net">
x3dom-users@lists.sourceforge.net</a>; X3D
Graphics public mailing list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Call to
Progress on X3D V4</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>hi Leonard,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I completely understand your
frustration with the situation.</div>
<div class="">Looking at things objectively I
believe that the recent phenomenal interest in
VR has taken the community by surprise. The
X3D/VRML community has been comfortable
operating at a particular pace, however
circumstances are overtaking us.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I was preparing the first lecture
of my Semester 2 VR class over the weekend,
and was taken aback by the sheer number of
startup (or should it be upstart) attempts at
developing a ‘VR’ language/platform
(proprietary or open).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This ‘new’ VR industry is either
unaware of X3D or has chosen to bypass, for
whatever reason, the standard.</div>
<div class="">If this isn’t addressed soon X3D
may become irrelevant, which none of us want
to see.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I think one of the fundamental
challenges facing the X3D WG and community of
users and developers, is simply the lack of
awareness of the standard in the VR industry.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I’m not a member of the WG,
however as a member of the X3D community I
genuinely appreciate the efforts of the WG,
and so I will do whatever I can to
promote/champion X3D.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">cheers</div>
<div class="">rgds Dave<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto;
text-align:start; text-indent:0px;
text-transform:none; white-space:normal;
widows:auto; word-spacing:0px;
word-wrap:break-word">
__________________________<br class="">
David Murphy<br class="">
<br class="">
Department of Computer Science<br class="">
Room 1.77<br class="">
Western Gateway Building<br class="">
University College Cork<br class="">
Ireland<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
e: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:d.murphy@cs.ucc.ie"
class="">d.murphy@cs.ucc.ie</a><br
class="">
map: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://bit.ly/WGB_UCC" class="">http://bit.ly/WGB_UCC</a><br
class="">
w: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://multimedia.ucc.ie" class="">http://multimedia.ucc.ie</a><br
class="">
w: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.imclab.ucc.ie" class="">http://www.imclab.ucc.ie</a><br
class="">
w: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cs.ucc.ie/staff/dmurphy.html"
class="">http://www.cs.ucc.ie/staff/dmurphy.html</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 11 Jan 2016, at 06:04,
Leonard Daly <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:web3d@realism.com"
class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:web3d@realism.com">web3d@realism.com</a></a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">Last week I sent a message
to the X3D WG about my concerns on
lack of progress for developing a V4
specification. This message is
expanding the reach of the original
message and providing additional
requested material, specifically
examples of situations where I would
want and/or expect X3D to run in a
browser. The list of examples is being
expanded as developments occur.<br
class="">
<br class="">
The marketplace is making significant
progress in commercialization of
virtual and augmented reality. There
is no standard format for expressing
3D content. The marketplace will
choose at least one format and it will
not likely be X3D. Already there are
alternative markup languages emerging
that attempt to do what X3D has been
doing for decades: create an HTML like
language for 3D graphics. GLAM is an
example proposed by Tony Parisi, and
most recently Mozilla’s A-frame,
released 3 weeks ago, both attempting
to speak in the language of web
developers to bring VR/AR to the
browser.<br class="">
<br class="">
I am very frustrated in the lack of
progress of the Working Group in
developing a specification for X3D V4.
There are number of issues that have
been raised about the fundamentals of
designs of X3D that appear to be
incompatible with an HTML/DOM
environment. A partial list includes
the following:<br class="">
* name-scope handling<br class="">
* scripting<br class="">
* interfaces to the nodes and fields
through the DOM API<br class="">
* event handling<br class="">
* profile structure and contents<br
class="">
* newly supported formats (geometry
and media)<br class="">
<br class="">
Examples of X3D/X3DOM: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.realism.com/x3d-v4-issue-examples"
class="">
</a><a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://tools.realism.com/x3d-v4-issue-examples">http://tools.realism.com/x3d-v4-issue-examples</a><br
class="">
There are other concerns about event
model that are not expressed in these
examples mostly due to being unable to
create an example that clearly shows
the problem. It does exists and you
may see some of that in sporadic or
jerky movement in the animation
examples using X3DOM.<br class="">
<br class="">
I have a concept specification that is
getting updated at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-v40"
class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-v40">http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-v40</a></a>. The was first sent
to the X3D WG in November and has had
a couple of other discussions.<br
class="">
<br class="">
My specific technical concerns with
the specification are listed in the
Author's Notes at
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-v40/authors-notes"
class="">http://tools.realism.com/specification/x3d-v40/authors-notes</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
Most importantly, it is not clear to
me who the WG believes is the target
audience for the specification and how
the specification will meet that
audience’s needs.<br class="">
<br class="">
As Co-Chair on Sabbatical and current
member of the WG, I need to take some
responsibility for not getting there.
I have been working on developing a
new specification and the beginning of
an open-source web-based application
for building scenes in the new
specification. The web application is
called “Basx3D - 3D the HTML Way”. I
have posted an article about it’s
initial release -
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://realism.com/blog/basx3d"
class="">http://realism.com/blog/basx3d</a>.
This post and one describing the X3D
V4 proposal are publicly available.<br
class="">
<br class="">
The application is targeted at web
developers who do not need to know the
details of creating an X3D by hand.
The concept was based on Unreal Engine
and Unity editors. I will be
continuing development of both the
application and proposal on a frequent
and regular basis. Basx3D and the
proposed specification function as a
two-way development effort with Basx3D
reflecting the proposal and providing
implementation information and
experience back to the specification.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Although outside of its scope, the WG
must be aware of the audience to which
the standard is written, and the
audience to which the standard is
being promoted. This concept is
crucial to the future adoption of X3D
and should ultimately be agreed upon
by the BOD, but the WG needs to
understand and follow this strategy
which will ultimately influence
prioritization of WG activity.<br
class="">
<br class="">
I am firmly committed to an open,
royalty free, ISO ratified standard
that communicates 3D data and its
behaviors over networks, especially
the dominant global network which is
the internet, and which universally
supports HTML5. I don’t want to see
the decades of work and passion that
have been invested in the standards
maintained and promoted by the Web3D
Consortium relegated to the corridors
of obscurity. Because of many trends
in software and hardware, a nexus of
opportunity has been created like
never before of which we can take
advantage to catapult the Consortium’s
standards to significant global
adoption. Let’s not miss this chance!<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Leonard Daly<br class="">
Basx3D and X3D V4 Specification
Proposal Author<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
In Full Support<br class="">
Mike Aratow<br class="">
Treasurer, Web3D Consortium<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
-- <br class="">
*Leonard Daly*<br class="">
X3D Co-Chair<br class="">
Cloud Consultant<br class="">
President, Daly Realism - /Creating
the Future/<br class="">
<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
x3d-public mailing list<br class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
class="">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br
class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><br
class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
x3d-public mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<font class="tahoma,arial,helvetica san serif"
color="#333366"><font size="+1"><b>Leonard Daly</b></font><br>
X3D Co-Chair<br>
Cloud Consultant<br>
President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i>
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
x3d-public mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<font class="tahoma,arial,helvetica san serif" color="#333366">
<font size="+1"><b>Leonard Daly</b></font><br>
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
X3D Co-Chair on Sabbatical<br>
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair<br>
President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i>
</font></div>
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