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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Doug & John,<br>
<br>
Can you guys write up a description for this proposed node so that
it can be considered for inclusion. <br>
<br>
<br>
Leonard Daly<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CY1PR14MB0567598036041BD02FBA72B9B6D90@CY1PR14MB0567.namprd14.prod.outlook.com"
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I've done node graphs before -carbon molecules in 2D, with
spline bonds, and node positions adjusted dynamically by least
squares- but not in x3d.
<div>But someone must have done a node graph in x3d.</div>
<div>I think the use of 2-point cylinder extrusion for this is
appropriate. </div>
<div>Doing it with a transform hierarchy on a regular cylinder
sounds awkward. I would need a clever little script for that.</div>
<div>I think H-Anim and RigidBodyPhysics also have some
non-transform-hierarchy ways of positioning/orienting things,
but that's a lot of extra stuff to do something so basic.</div>
<div>Maybe there should be a Node just for 2 point orienting,
positioning and stretching.</div>
<div>x3dconnector {</div>
<div>startpoint in SFVec3f</div>
<div>endpoint in SFVec3f</div>
<div>children inout MFNode</div>
<div>}</div>
<div>-Doug<br>
<br>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000" face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><b>From:</b> x3d-public
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"><x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org></a> on behalf of John
Carlson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> January 27, 2016 5:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Leonard Daly; X3D Graphics public mailing
list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Extrusions, take 3</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>Let me guess, there’s some IP that’s preventing us from
doing that? Like the dreaded Geo-Vector?
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">John<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:04 AM, John
Carlson <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" class="">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word">I guess
what I am trying to say is, even though you can
specify a cylinder with a central point, a
height and a radius, it’s much more convenient
to do it with 2 points and a radius. If you
need a height, you can subtract and take the
normal, whereas getting the second point with a
height is very problematic except in one
direction. Does anyone disagree?
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:53
AM, John Carlson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a></a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class=""
style="word-wrap:break-word">So if one
has to take a line segment and
transform it to another line segment
in space, what’s the typical algorithm
to do that? I probably used to know
this. I was trying to work it out
again a while back.
<div class="">Do the new declarative
nodes in V4+ support this? Or the
old nodes in V3? Or does one need a
script? Is there a node with a
linear transform defined by 12
numbers (4 SFVec3f)? Could there
be?</div>
<div class="">2 PositionInterpolators?
Then how does that become a
transform?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">John</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 27, 2016,
at 12:33 AM, John Carlson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a></a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class=""
style="word-wrap:break-word">Better
yet, define a script which
takes two endpoints on a
geometry, then transform the
two endpoints (and thus the
geometry) with the script.
Hm. I might be able to do
this myself. Hmm.
<div class="">Sound more
possible with Cylinders
defined by X3D now. Took
me long enough.<br
class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">John<br
class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote
type="cite"
class="">
<div class="">On
Jan 27, 2016,
at 12:26 AM,
John Carlson
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a></a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class=""
style="word-wrap:break-word">I just realized the code was online here:
<div class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div class=""><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/force.x3dhttps://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/force.x3d"
class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/force.x3dhttps://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/force.x3d">https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/force.x3dhttps://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/force.x3d</a></a></div>
<div class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">(click
raw)</div>
<div class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">Here’s
the challenge.
Define an IFS
by two
endpoints, and
then move
those
endpoints
around with
minimal
scripting
(Declarative
3D).</div>
<div class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">John<br
class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote
type="cite"
class="">
<div class="">On
Jan 26, 2016,
at 11:45 PM,
John Carlson
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a></a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<p dir="ltr"
class="">I am
not "modeling"
I am doing
declarative 3d
as much as
possible and
scripting the
rest. Thus I
am creating
protos for
edges and
nodes of a 3D
graph. I
currently use
ROUTES to link
the edges
(cylinders/extrusions)
to the nodes
(spheres). I
am using
position
interpolators
to animate the
nodes, and
routes to
update the
spline of the
edges. I do
not understand
how to use
Cylinders as
defined by X3D
in this way so
I use
extrusions.
If you can
suggest a way
to implement a
3D graph
without
extrusions, I
would be
welcome to
hear it. I
can provide
source code if
you like. I
have posted
force.x3d
here, or you
can look at
force.json in
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/">https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/</a></a></p>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
Jan 26, 2016
11:27 PM,
"Leonard Daly"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com">Leonard.Daly@realism.com</a></a>>
wrote:<br
type="attribution"
class="">
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;
border-left:1px
#ccc solid;
padding-left:1ex">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
class="">
<div class="">On
1/26/2016 5:21
PM, John
Carlson wrote:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite"
class="">
<pre class="">All I would really like to see is an easy way to define Cylinder with 2 endpoints and a radius. If that is provided, I have no problem with deprecating Extrusion from the standard.
I do not think defining a Cylinder in this way would be onerous to a run-time, but I could be wrong. If someone could provide an example of a Cylinder like this, it would be great!</pre>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
John,<br
class="">
<br class="">
You using
Extrusion to
define a
cylinder with
known
endpoints, as
opposed to
using a
Transform
{Shape
{Cylinder}} to
do that based
on the center
point and
height then
rotated &
translated
into place.<br
class="">
<br class="">
I gather you
are doing your
modeling by
hand in a text
or xml editor
(like
X3D-Edit).
There is
almost no
commercial
modeling-by-hand.
I do not know
of any
professional
or amateur
modeler
creating
commercial
quality models
working that
way. I think
you will find
a tool like
Blender solves
a lot of your
modeling
issues.<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Leonard Daly<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote
type="cite"
class="">
<pre class="">John
</pre>
<blockquote
type="cite"
class="">
<pre class="">On Jan 26, 2016, at 8:13 PM, John Carlson <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" class=""><yottzumm@gmail.com></a> wrote:
Uh, I asked for an IndexedFaceSet. Thanks, though.
John
</pre>
<blockquote
type="cite"
class="">
<pre class="">On Jan 26, 2016, at 8:11 PM, doug sanden <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:highaspirations@hotmail.com" target="_blank" class=""><highaspirations@hotmail.com></a> wrote:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/41.x3d" target="_blank" class="">http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/41.x3d</a>
snake animation animating extrusion spine
From: x3d-public [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" target="_blank" class="">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>] on behalf of John Carlson [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>]
Sent: January 26, 2016 6:04 PM
To: Leonard Daly
Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank" class="">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Extrusions, take 3
Maybe just show an example of an IndexedFaceSet which is an extrusion of a circle with 3 spline points, with the “bend” animated from 90 to 180 degrees.
It’s okay to use Blender or Maya, I’d just like to see what the results look like.
John
On Jan 26, 2016, at 8:01 PM, John Carlson <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">yottzumm@gmail.com</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" class=""><mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com></a>> wrote:
So how do you propose to animate IndexedFaceSets in a declarative or VRMLscript or JavaScript manner if they are Extrusions? Can we see an example? If the developer has to do it, can we help them?
John
On Jan 26, 2016, at 6:58 PM, Leonard Daly <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com" target="_blank" class="">Leonard.Daly@realism.com</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com" target="_blank" class=""><mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com></a>> wrote:
On 1/26/2016 3:21 PM, John Carlson wrote:
Leonard, I think you forget that Extrusion splines etc. can be animated. If Maya can export an Extrusion animation to X3D V4.0 and your new elements can handle animation of it, I think we are fine.
In Maya and Blender, extrusions are converted to IndexedFaceSets. These can be animated through the usual mechanisms in those applications. The results are typically stored in a FBX file. Unfortunately, the FBX format is not open and not too conducive to importing in a browser. Autodesk provides a C++ and Python API for accessing the file.
Extrusions are just a convenience node for creating a constrained IndexedFaceSet. I am working on exactly how X3D fits in the process chain from modeling tools to display. The goal is that X3D is an declarative archivable format that has a browser-based run time. The goal is to not reduce the display capability of X3D in that chain; however, not all of the functionality of X3D V3.3 is necessary to remain in the node definitions to make that happen.
Animation of the spline and cross-sections of an extrusion is much easier for the developer, but puts a much greater load on the run-time as it needs to re-triangulate the result on each animation.
Leonard Daly
John
On Jan 26, 2016, at 1:47 PM, Leonard Daly <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com" target="_blank" class=""><mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com></a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com" target="_blank" class="">Leonard.Daly@realism.com</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com" target="_blank" class=""><mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com></a>> wrote:
I would like to ask the question very differently. My question is not to ignore the importance of getting the definition correct for X3D <= V3.3.
Most (>95%) 3D modeling is done with a tool. In non-CAD environment, the tools is almost certainly Maya or Blender. Both of those tools have extrusions built in to their interface. I imagine CAD tools are similar. With so many tools providing graphical extrusion editors, and some of the tools being open-source (at least Blender);
Do we need an extrusion node in V4 to support content developed for V4+?
Leonard Daly
On 1/26/2016 7:15 AM, Alekseyev, Vsevolod (NIH/NIAID) [E] wrote:
Hi X3D community,
I've tried and failed twice to explain the problems with the definition of the Extrusion node. So here's a tl;dr version:
Dear authors of the X3D standard, please take a careful look at the standard and answer me:
1) When the spine goes (0,0,0)-(0,-1,0), what is the CSP?
Note: all answers but one will render one of the reference models in the Savage archive invalid.
2) When the spine goes (0,0,0)-(0,1,0)-(0,0,0), what is the CSP?
3) When the spine goes (0,0,0)-(1,1,0)-(1,1,0)-(1,1,0)-(2,0,0), what is the CSP for the three middle points?
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--
Leonard Daly
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant
X3D Co-Chair on Sabbatical
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair
President, Daly Realism - Creating the Future
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--
Leonard Daly
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant
X3D Co-Chair on Sabbatical
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair
President, Daly Realism - Creating the Future
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x3d-public mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank" class="">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank" class=""><mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org></a>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="">--
<br class="">
<font class=""
color="#333366"><font class="" size="+1"><b class="">Leonard Daly</b></font><br
class="">
3D Systems
& Cloud
Consultant<br
class="">
X3D Co-Chair
on Sabbatical<br
class="">
LA ACM
SIGGRAPH Chair<br
class="">
President,
Daly Realism -
<i class="">Creating
the Future</i>
</font></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<font class="tahoma,arial,helvetica san serif" color="#333366">
<font size="+1"><b>Leonard Daly</b></font><br>
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
X3D Co-Chair on Sabbatical<br>
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair<br>
President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i>
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