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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Basic X3D already is an app. It’s called a plugin presently, and it’s in a walled garden. Do you want to stay behind the wall or not? I did not say “basic x3d demoted to an app”.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>The way things are going, with web-components, AFAICT, your users will be downloading a ton of scripts or many scripts, compressed/minified into a script package, and likely cached. See x3dom and likely cobweb as an example. Likely there are alternate solutions. Providing platform support is the solution, but first, can we mix markup? Ultimately, we are somewhat dependent on what the graphics cards makers want to do. Do they want to accelerate 2D in a 3D context? Accelerating 2D as an overlay on top of 3D seems to be a priority. We shall see where VR takes us.<span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net">Joe D Williams</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Friday, June 10, 2016 7:56 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:highaspirations@hotmail.com">doug sanden</a>; <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>; <a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">John Carlson</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] [x3d]V4.0Opendiscussion/workshoponX3DHTMLintegration</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal>> The app will be installed in your browser,</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>basic x3d demoted to an app? I would believe in an X3D scene and </p><p class=MsoNormal>interaction coded and run as an app, but not basic X3D as an app.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> I think that “Downloading a big set of scripts” is the wave of the </p><p class=MsoNormal>> future.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>then the future sucks. Already the web is being ruined by every </p><p class=MsoNormal>friggin' page downloading tons of crutch js to provide some </p><p class=MsoNormal>convenience abstraction(s) of the DOM. Nothing more fun than putting </p><p class=MsoNormal>those script calls in the head, or tail and like the author having to </p><p class=MsoNormal>choose between platforms depending upon which js shim is in use with </p><p class=MsoNormal>that browser, or having several javascript developers competing for </p><p class=MsoNormal>your choice.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>At some point in the past we thought that by defining levels and </p><p class=MsoNormal>components that an X3D browser could just download extensions and thus </p><p class=MsoNormal>keep the basic download for the plugin smaller. This did not work.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Uh, what else?</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Well, to take a real hard look at what we want to provide as a native </p><p class=MsoNormal>implementation. Sure there is lots of new stuff, like what you are </p><p class=MsoNormal>working on, and if we do it right then the interfaces are all there.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>So, I think we should really consider how x3d syntax and user code </p><p class=MsoNormal>structures can change to really fit in with html, DOM, and CSS with </p><p class=MsoNormal>the idea that we are aiming at browser support by native code, not </p><p class=MsoNormal>addons. We have seen that it is very possible to create something </p><p class=MsoNormal>worthwhile with just some simple syntax details and javascript. The </p><p class=MsoNormal>html browsers have really stepped up with much better support of </p><p class=MsoNormal>'standard' javascript and DOM and other xml technologies so to me </p><p class=MsoNormal>there is no reason not to aim for an <x3d> ... </x3d> environment </p><p class=MsoNormal>where we don't need to depend on a couple of different js and other </p><p class=MsoNormal>shotcut schemes to get it to go big time.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>All Best,</p><p class=MsoNormal>Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>----- Original Message ----- </p><p class=MsoNormal>From: "John Carlson" <yottzumm@gmail.com></p><p class=MsoNormal>To: "Joe D Williams" <joedwil@earthlink.net>; "doug sanden" </p><p class=MsoNormal><highaspirations@hotmail.com>; <x3d-public@web3d.org></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2016 6:48 AM</p><p class=MsoNormal>Subject: RE: [x3d-public] [x3d]V4.0 </p><p class=MsoNormal>Opendiscussion/workshoponX3DHTMLintegration</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I think that “Downloading a big set of scripts” is the wave of the </p><p class=MsoNormal>future. It’s just that you’ll do it for install and updates and not </p><p class=MsoNormal>every time you want to run an app. The app will be installed in your </p><p class=MsoNormal>browser, phone or mobile, and you’ll be able to update as desired, or </p><p class=MsoNormal>when the content developer wants you to. JSPs, JSF, Struts (back-end </p><p class=MsoNormal>dynamically generated HTML5) etc. will go away, and you’ll be left </p><p class=MsoNormal>with JSON, HTTP/WebSockets, REST and perhaps XML across the network. </p><p class=MsoNormal>Network back and forth will actually go down. The division between </p><p class=MsoNormal>Apache for static content and app servers for dynamic content will </p><p class=MsoNormal>become more marked. The thing we want to be able to do is figure out </p><p class=MsoNormal>what the standard for dynamic 3D content is. If it’s just DIS, that’s </p><p class=MsoNormal>OK—let’s bring it to the web. If it’s SAI, let’s bring that to the </p><p class=MsoNormal>web. Let’s be sure we support H-Anim. Uh, what else?</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>John</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from Mail for Windows 10</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>From: Joe D Williams</p><p class=MsoNormal>Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 3:25 PM</p><p class=MsoNormal>To: doug sanden; x3d-public@web3d.org</p><p class=MsoNormal>Subject: Re: [x3d-public] [x3d]V4.0 Opendiscussion/workshopon </p><p class=MsoNormal>X3DHTMLintegration</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>But I don't think this is the point for now. It seems to me we have to</p><p class=MsoNormal>think long term and figure out what will be 'bulit-in' capabilities</p><p class=MsoNormal>for an html browser running in an environment where <x3d> ... </x3d></p><p class=MsoNormal>parts are processed without the need for external scripts. I think</p><p class=MsoNormal>downloading a big set of scripts just to get the thing running should</p><p class=MsoNormal>not be necessafy. Then the choice becomes what level of 'built-in'</p><p class=MsoNormal>convenience and automation do we want to provide.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks,</p><p class=MsoNormal>Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>