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    <p>If I understand you correctly, different surgeries have lots of
      things in common.  You could have protos for skin, bones,
      different organs, etc. rather than the specific surgeries (it
      would be more based on what human parts you are invading rather
      than the specific surgery.  For example, taking out the
      gallbladder or the appendix, you still need to go through the
      abdominal wall which has common tissues.</p>
    <p>Thanks,</p>
    <p>Mike<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/25/16 10:32 PM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:58104006.0447370a.69b33.0be0@mx.google.com"
      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal">Like 
          ExternProtoDeclare/ProtoDeclare/ProtoInterface/ProtoBody which
          can be used with ProtoInstances.  Sorry for wrong terminology.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">John</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a>
          for Windows 10</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From: </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:maratow@noegenesis.com">Michael Aratow</a><br>
            <b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, October 25, 2016 10:20 PM<br>
            <b>To: </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
            <b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] Purpose of X3Dng --
            Animation (of humanoid models)</p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
        <p>Hey John</p>
        <p>I am from the Medical Working Group and a practicing
          physician.  Use cases for healthcare should be created for
          both HAnim and X3D as it is a significant vertical market
          which we say these standards address.  </p>
        <p>I am not exactly sure what you mean by a prototype for each
          surgery.</p>
        <p>Thanks,</p>
        <p>Mike</p>
        <p> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 10/24/16 1:34 AM, <a
              moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>
            wrote:</p>
        </div>
        <blockquote>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">The only thing that I can think of that
              isn’t more animation based (abstract biological processes)
              and is more human based is surgeries or injuries.  Should
              there be a place in the X3D or H-Anim examples for
              surgeries?  A prototype for each surgery perhaps?   How do
              doctors deal with unusual circumstances?  Can someone
              forward this to the Medical Working Group (I don’t have
              their address handy).  Can we digitally sign the examples
              so we know they haven’t been corrupted?</p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">John</p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a>
              for Windows 10</p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From: </b><a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com">Leonard Daly</a><br>
                <b>Sent: </b>Sunday, October 23, 2016 11:43 PM<br>
                <b>To: </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>;
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>;
                <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org">Human
                  Animation working group</a><br>
                <b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] Purpose of X3Dng --
                Animation (of humanoid models)</p>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 10/23/2016 8:30 PM, <a
                moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>
              wrote:</p>
            <blockquote>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Leonard,</p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">I think you wanted to say for your
                last sentence: “If X3Dng joint animation and skin
                deformation was taken, perhaps wholesale, from H-Anim,
                what would be left in H-Anim?”</p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">But you can probably word-craft
                better than I can.  Have another go at it if you like.</p>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
              John,<br>
              <br>
              Thanks for pointing this out. I am not too particular to
              get the discussion going. What you said is correct, but I
              did want to give the opportunity to include other material
              that might better fit the mission of H-Anim. I do not know
              what that might be, nor do I wish to presume anything
              about that mission. I did intend it to be an open-ended
              question, though I could have improved the wording.<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              Leonard Daly<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
            </p>
            <blockquote>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">John</p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a>
                for Windows 10</p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From: </b><a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com">Leonard Daly</a><br>
                  <b>Sent: </b>Sunday, October 23, 2016 11:22 PM<br>
                  <b>To: </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>;
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org">Human Animation
                    working group</a><br>
                  <b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] Purpose of X3Dng --
                  Animation (of humanoid models)</p>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">I want to point out that my posting
                on X3Dng Animation [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://realism.com/blog/purpose-x3d-animation">http://realism.com/blog/purpose-x3d-animation</a>]
                (BTW, ng == next generation) is not necessarily for
                characters - human, humanoid, or animal. It is a means
                of animation that is in standard use in the animation
                industry. It is frequently applied to characters, but
                that is not the only possible target of the animation. <br>
                <br>
                This method of animation is not "fool-proof" - there are
                some edge cases that cause problems -- for example a
                rotation of pi radians on a joint that can twist causes
                the skin to "candy-wrap". See <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cs.cmu.edu/%7Eyaser/Lecture-9-Skinning%20and%20Body%20Representations.pdf">http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~yaser/Lecture-9-Skinning%20and%20Body%20Representations.pdf</a>,
                pages 27-34 for a visual and technical description of
                the issue. The charts also provide a lot of the
                mathematical framework that Don discusses below
                including motion capture.<br>
                <br>
                So I'll ask my question again, if X3Dng includes joint
                animation with skin deformation at a profile that is
                generally used (e.g., Immersive or less); what should
                the H-Anim specification cover? I am not trying to imply
                that H-Anim should not exist, but a big chunk of the
                document does discuss joint animation with skin
                deformation. If that capability were part of the X3D
                specification, would it need to be repeated in H-Anim?
                (If so, why?). If it was removed, what would be the
                appropriate material to include in the document?<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                Leonard Daly<br>
                <br>
                <br>
              </p>
              <blockquote>
                <p class="MsoNormal">[cc: h-anim] <br>
                  <br>
                  Summary: a lot of capability is steadily adding up
                  with H-Anim, and beginning to overlap with Medical and
                  CAD. <br>
                  <br>
                  Great observations below, Joe and Michalis!  8)  Thank
                  you.  Here are some reactions. <br>
                  <br>
                  We have had a lot of work to achieve progress towards
                  X3D version 4.  (Don't know what the subject-line
                  "X3Dng" refers to.)  Recent progress is confirming
                  that the work on X3D Object Model has been
                  fundamentally important as a way to ensure that the
                  entire X3D scene graph is consistent and coherent
                  across every file encoding and every programming
                  language binding.  So we are really building for
                  scalable, repeatable success. <br>
                  <br>
                  Observation: SFRotation axis-angle representation is
                  mathematically equivalent to quaternions, so there is
                  no conversion issue there.  Matrix rotations are also
                  almost-fully equivalent with only a few edge-case
                  anomalies like the possibility of exceptions when
                  computing inverses.  So mapping to different forms of
                  rotations is not particularly difficult when using X3D
                  SFRotation, it just takes close attention to detail.
                  (One virtue of programming, even when challenging, is
                  that You Only Have To Get It Right Once.) <br>
                  <br>
                  Personally, am hoping to get back to work on the
                  BVH-mocap-to-X3D-interpolators converter code before
                  the end of the year.  Goal is to have this open source
                  Java running and producing X3D animations, just like
                  Suwon University's C++ code did for their H-Anim Music
                  Video competition.  That should establish a baseline
                  of 2 mocap-related implementations that can help us
                  continue to improve. <br>
                  <br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://svn.code.sf.net/p/x3d/code/www.web3d.org/x3d/tools/X3dEdit3.3/X3D/src/org/web3d/x3d/hanim/bvh/">https://svn.code.sf.net/p/x3d/code/www.web3d.org/x3d/tools/X3dEdit3.3/X3D/src/org/web3d/x3d/hanim/bvh/</a>
                  <br>
                      BvhSkeletonParameters.java <br>
                      Hierarchy.java <br>
                      Joint.java <br>
                      Motion.java <br>
                  <br>
                  All of the recent review activity and interest during
                  the H-Anim specifications review is certainly a
                  wonderful development.  When all of the other H-Anim
                  specification comments are assembled from
                  participating ISO national standards bodies, we can
                  plan on an Specification Editors Meeting to consider
                  issues and best plans for resolutions.  Meanwhile, as
                  time permits, the H-Anim and X3D Working Groups can
                  continue looking at the baseline mantis issues list to
                  prepare potential solutions. <br>
                  <br>
                  I also agree that the path to success lies through
                  implementation and evaluation.  As we keep building
                  examples, and implementing conversions, and adding
                  tool support, am expecting the differences between
                  different approaches will appear simpler, clearer,
                  more adaptable, and easier to support.  Similarly, it
                  makes no sense to change what we have in H-Anim until
                  we have direct evidence of problems or how to
                  accomplish potential improvements. <br>
                  <br>
                  Current H-Anim example models: <br>
                  <br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation</a>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  Regarding importance of H-Anim tutorials: another
                  point well taken.  Here is one with 97 slides (second
                  half includes slides + annotation notes).  Questions,
                  corrections and suggestions for improvement welcome. <br>
                  <br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://x3dgraphics.com/slidesets/X3dForAdvancedModeling/HumanoidAnimation.pdf">http://x3dgraphics.com/slidesets/X3dForAdvancedModeling/HumanoidAnimation.pdf</a>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  Does it make sense to add adaptation/conversion of
                  Blender character animations into H-Anim models as a
                  goal?  Blender does have excellent general support for
                  X3D export/import (on its top-level File menu).  If
                  so, we could add it to: <br>
                  <br>
                      web3D.org > PARTICIPATE > Projects Wish List
                  <br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://www.web3d.org/projects/wish-list">http://www.web3d.org/projects/wish-list</a>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  Perhaps someone wants to look at Cobweb source and
                  help out with adding support for H-Anim nodes.  Not so
                  hard, the pattern is somewhat similar to CAD nodes,
                  already implemented in X3DOM; yet another open-source
                  example implementation is available as X3D prototypes
                  (no Script needed) at: <br>
                  <br>
                      X3D Example Archives: Basic, Humanoid Animation,
                  HAnim Prototypes <br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/HAnimPrototypesIndex.html">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/HAnimPrototypesIndex.html</a>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                      Cobweb Supported Components <br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://titania.create3000.de/cobweb/#c426">http://titania.create3000.de/cobweb/#c426</a>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  Looking further ahead.  There is one more clarion
                  priority for H-Anim progress: modeling human joints,
                  bones, skin and motions at a resolution suitable for
                  medical applications and electronic health records. 
                  Alignment of DICOM-standard medical imagery as X3D
                  volume presentations is another emerging major asset. 
                  Common interest with CAD group in metadata
                  annotations, 3D printed parts (splints, prostheses,
                  devices) and 3D scanning is also truly compelling. 
                  The CAD and medical workshops at the Web3D 2016
                  Conference in Anaheim a few months back showed that
                  much is possible.  Early-exemplar case study: <br>
                  <br>
                      3D Printed Heart for Printed Preoperative Planning
                  <br>
                      Two views of a printed heart from MRI data <br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://www.web3d.org/example/3d-printed-heart">http://www.web3d.org/example/3d-printed-heart</a>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  Assembled and aligned together, with working tools +
                  repeatable workflows + validation of correctness, the
                  X3D family of technologies holds tremendous promise to
                  broadly improve medical understanding and
                  communication. <br>
                  <br>
                  All of this technical scrutiny is super valuable. 
                  Having a constructive community is so valuable - we
                  avoid blunders and steadily build shared
                  understanding. <br>
                  <br>
                  Onward we go, step by step! Looking forward to
                  continuing progress together. <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  On 10/21/2016 5:06 PM, Joe D Williams wrote: <br>
                  <br>
                </p>
                <blockquote>
                  <blockquote>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">It would be fantastic if e.g.
                      Blender armature animation was exported <br>
                      to X3D. It is already possible, as H-Anim supports
                      the necessary <br>
                      features --- what is miss is the actual code on
                      the side of Blender <br>
                      (Python) exporter to X3D. </p>
                  </blockquote>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                    Good idea, perhaps if the Blender animation data
                    exists so it can be made to work in interpolators. <br>
                    Sometimes the export of animation intended for
                    rendering to film or video is just a list of
                    completely rendered frames rather than an actual
                    realtime animation style. <br>
                    <br>
                    If the data exists to export keyframe keys and
                    keyvalues, then the rotations and translations
                    should be easy to get. In an 'old style' armature
                    they were not interested in joint rotation but
                    depended upon bone orientation. That is OK because
                    the purpose was to pose the artatmure for the next
                    frame, not to worry about interpolation since they
                    knew the target frame intervals. That is OK, bone
                    orientation and joint rotation is the same. <br>
                    <br>
                    Another detail is that the joint animation data may
                    be in unit quaternions, which is actually most
                    likely since it is the preferred form in collada and
                    glTF.  Or, the data may use euler-type angles
                    (x-y-z) that need to be converted to x3d axis-angle
                    which can be straightforward. <br>
                    <br>
                    That is what Part 2 of new HAnim is about, how to
                    import mocap and other types of animation data.
                    First you consider the capture skeleton, then you
                    model it to a model of an HAnim 'standard' playback
                    skeleton, convert the keyvalues as required, create
                    the positon and orientation interpolators, then run
                    the thing. Everyone's comments on this Part 2 is
                    also appreciated. <br>
                    <br>
                    I don't think we want to also cover the idea of no
                    interps, just itty through the mocap keyvalues for
                    video or film fixed frame interval rendering and
                    capture. X3D's target is realtime or anytime and
                    everytime. Of course you also make video or film
                    using X3D. Same for 'general' coverage of this
                    anmation technology. Of course you can do anything
                    you want. You don't need study HAnim very long until
                    you learn that yes, you can define your own joint
                    hierarchy, use any names you wish, and attach any
                    kind of geometry and sensors you wish. If you want
                    to do different shaped skin, then fine. Finally, if
                    you understand the skelton setup, you can just fly
                    them joints around to achieve most any animations
                    possible with your model. You can easily adjust
                    animations with a keyboard, a text editor, and an
                    X3D player. <br>
                    <br>
                    Whatever you do, there are the same rules. Similar
                    skeletons with similar initial pose can exchange
                    skeletal animations. That is the most important
                    point of this entire effort. Exchange skins when
                    skeleton joint hierarchy, skin vertex count, order
                    of appearance in the user code, and feature point
                    relationships are the same. Sure we could tell that
                    story in a series of tutorials but this is a spec.
                    Maybe not this example, but the spec does not always
                    need to spell out the history or details that would
                    be obvious to an expert in the field, just the bare
                    implementation requirements. <br>
                    <br>
                    Again, capabilities in this spec can describe any
                    skeleton but I think we want to target something
                    concrete. Something that can have a set of reference
                    inputs and a set of reference outputs. Finally, we
                    want a 'standard' set of example animations that
                    work with each of the 'standard' LOA definitions. <br>
                    <br>
                    For this spec effort, the most important thing is
                    that Implementors get it right. If the
                    implementation can deliver a 'standard' humanoid
                    that uses 'standard' animations, then we have
                    something. If the implemetation gets it right, then
                    the users can get most anything out of it they want.
                    So that is why the HAnim spec targets the 'standard'
                    animatable humanoid. <br>
                    <br>
                    When we discuss general X3D animation facilities, of
                    which there are many, then that is the job of a set
                    of tutorials. Please recall that the spec is
                    addressing Implementors, and technicallly-oriented
                    users, not the general user. Usually the spec will
                    fail when it wanders into general tutorials aimed at
                    general users. <br>
                    <br>
                    Still, the idea of bringing something like the HAnim
                    DIsplacer up into the same bag of tools as other
                    styles and types of interpolators would be a fine
                    idea. I think that might be what Leonard was
                    mentioning when he said there are other more basic
                    tools than joint-actuated mesh deformation. It is
                    easy to recognize the Displacer as a basic mesh
                    animation tool that would be encountered in early
                    animation lessons. <br>
                    <br>
                    Thanks and Best, <br>
                    Joe <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michalis
                    Kamburelis" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:michalis.kambi@gmail.com"><michalis.kambi@gmail.com></a>
                    <br>
                    To: "Leonard Daly" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com"><Leonard.Daly@realism.com></a>
                    <br>
                    Cc: "Joe D Williams" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net"><joedwil@earthlink.net></a>;
                    "X3D Public" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a>
                    <br>
                    Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 10:34 PM <br>
                    Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Purpose of X3Dng --
                    Animation <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                  </p>
                  <blockquote>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">2016-10-21 6:23 GMT+02:00
                      Leonard Daly <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com"><Leonard.Daly@realism.com></a>:
                      <br>
                      <br>
                    </p>
                    <blockquote>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">In all your writings you
                        appear to be making the assumption that
                        joint-based <br>
                        animation with deformable skin is H-Anim. That
                        is not true. </p>
                    </blockquote>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                      Hi, <br>
                      <br>
                      From my point of view, I see H-Anim as "the way to
                      do animation using <br>
                      skeletons, bones and (optional) skins in X3D". I
                      can easily do <br>
                      skeletal animation of anything (humans, pipes,
                      animals) with H-Anim. I <br>
                      actually implemented it in view3dscene, and really
                      there's nothing <br>
                      limiting this system to "humanoids". You just
                      transform the bones, and <br>
                      optionally deform a mesh following the per-vertex
                      weights. <br>
                      <br>
                      Maybe we could solve the issues raised here by
                      simply changing the <br>
                      wording (and some node names), to de-emphasize the
                      "humanoid" part in <br>
                      the H-Anim specifications. (The X3D component <br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/hanim.html">http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/hanim.html</a>
                      <br>
                      and the H-Anim spec on <br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://h-anim.org/Specifications/H-Anim200x/ISO_IEC_FCD_19774/">http://h-anim.org/Specifications/H-Anim200x/ISO_IEC_FCD_19774/</a>
                      ). <br>
                      <br>
                      Such change would more accurately reflect H-Anim's
                      capabilities (in my view). <br>
                      <br>
                      How about we would simply rename H-Anim component
                      in X3D to "Skeletal <br>
                      Animation"? Some additional renames would be nice,
                      like removing the <br>
                      "HAnim*" prefix from nodes, and the main
                      "HAnimHumanoid" node could be <br>
                      something simpler like just a "Skeleton" (with the
                      primary field being <br>
                      "skeleton"). <br>
                      <br>
                      The fact that the H-Anim standard defines also a
                      standard "Structure <br>
                      of a humanoid" is just "an extra" for me. I mean,
                      it is valuable!, but <br>
                      it can also be simply ignored if you don't model a
                      humanoid (or don't <br>
                      care about standardizing your names, to transfer
                      the animations <br>
                      between other humanoids). <br>
                      <br>
                      Also, adding such "Skeletal Animation" component
                      to the "Immersive" <br>
                      (or even earlier) profile would be a nice touch.
                      It is a major <br>
                      animation method. Putting it inside a component
                      other than "Full" is a <br>
                      way of encouraging implementations of it.
                      Especially since it seems we <br>
                      do have a lot of implementations of it. <br>
                      <br>
                      It would be fantastic if e.g. Blender armature
                      animation was exported <br>
                      to X3D. It is already possible, as H-Anim supports
                      the necessary <br>
                      features --- what is miss is the actual code on
                      the side of Blender <br>
                      (Python) exporter to X3D. <br>
                      <br>
                      I hope that this opinion helps:) <br>
                      <br>
                      Best regards, <br>
                      Michalis </p>
                  </blockquote>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                    _______________________________________________ <br>
                    x3d-public mailing list <br>
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>
                    <br>
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a>
                  </p>
                </blockquote>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                  <br>
                  all the best, Don </p>
              </blockquote>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              <p> </p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
                <b>Leonard Daly</b><br>
                3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
                LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair<br>
                President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i> </p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                <br>
              </p>
              <pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
              <pre>x3d-public mailing list</pre>
              <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a></pre>
              <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
            <p> </p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
              <b>Leonard Daly</b><br>
              3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
              LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair<br>
              President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i> </p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
            <br>
          </p>
          <pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
          <pre>x3d-public mailing list</pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
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