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<p>If I understand you correctly, different surgeries have lots of
things in common. You could have protos for skin, bones,
different organs, etc. rather than the specific surgeries (it
would be more based on what human parts you are invading rather
than the specific surgery. For example, taking out the
gallbladder or the appendix, you still need to go through the
abdominal wall which has common tissues.</p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
<p>Mike<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/25/16 10:32 PM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:58104006.0447370a.69b33.0be0@mx.google.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Like
ExternProtoDeclare/ProtoDeclare/ProtoInterface/ProtoBody which
can be used with ProtoInstances. Sorry for wrong terminology.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">John</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a>
for Windows 10</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From: </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:maratow@noegenesis.com">Michael Aratow</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, October 25, 2016 10:20 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] Purpose of X3Dng --
Animation (of humanoid models)</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>Hey John</p>
<p>I am from the Medical Working Group and a practicing
physician. Use cases for healthcare should be created for
both HAnim and X3D as it is a significant vertical market
which we say these standards address. </p>
<p>I am not exactly sure what you mean by a prototype for each
surgery.</p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
<p>Mike</p>
<p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 10/24/16 1:34 AM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The only thing that I can think of that
isn’t more animation based (abstract biological processes)
and is more human based is surgeries or injuries. Should
there be a place in the X3D or H-Anim examples for
surgeries? A prototype for each surgery perhaps? How do
doctors deal with unusual circumstances? Can someone
forward this to the Medical Working Group (I don’t have
their address handy). Can we digitally sign the examples
so we know they haven’t been corrupted?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">John</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a>
for Windows 10</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From: </b><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com">Leonard Daly</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Sunday, October 23, 2016 11:43 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org">Human
Animation working group</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] Purpose of X3Dng --
Animation (of humanoid models)</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 10/23/2016 8:30 PM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">Leonard,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think you wanted to say for your
last sentence: “If X3Dng joint animation and skin
deformation was taken, perhaps wholesale, from H-Anim,
what would be left in H-Anim?”</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But you can probably word-craft
better than I can. Have another go at it if you like.</p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
John,<br>
<br>
Thanks for pointing this out. I am not too particular to
get the discussion going. What you said is correct, but I
did want to give the opportunity to include other material
that might better fit the mission of H-Anim. I do not know
what that might be, nor do I wish to presume anything
about that mission. I did intend it to be an open-ended
question, though I could have improved the wording.<br>
<br>
<br>
Leonard Daly<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">John</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a>
for Windows 10</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From: </b><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com">Leonard Daly</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Sunday, October 23, 2016 11:22 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org">Human Animation
working group</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] Purpose of X3Dng --
Animation (of humanoid models)</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I want to point out that my posting
on X3Dng Animation [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://realism.com/blog/purpose-x3d-animation">http://realism.com/blog/purpose-x3d-animation</a>]
(BTW, ng == next generation) is not necessarily for
characters - human, humanoid, or animal. It is a means
of animation that is in standard use in the animation
industry. It is frequently applied to characters, but
that is not the only possible target of the animation. <br>
<br>
This method of animation is not "fool-proof" - there are
some edge cases that cause problems -- for example a
rotation of pi radians on a joint that can twist causes
the skin to "candy-wrap". See <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cs.cmu.edu/%7Eyaser/Lecture-9-Skinning%20and%20Body%20Representations.pdf">http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~yaser/Lecture-9-Skinning%20and%20Body%20Representations.pdf</a>,
pages 27-34 for a visual and technical description of
the issue. The charts also provide a lot of the
mathematical framework that Don discusses below
including motion capture.<br>
<br>
So I'll ask my question again, if X3Dng includes joint
animation with skin deformation at a profile that is
generally used (e.g., Immersive or less); what should
the H-Anim specification cover? I am not trying to imply
that H-Anim should not exist, but a big chunk of the
document does discuss joint animation with skin
deformation. If that capability were part of the X3D
specification, would it need to be repeated in H-Anim?
(If so, why?). If it was removed, what would be the
appropriate material to include in the document?<br>
<br>
<br>
Leonard Daly<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">[cc: h-anim] <br>
<br>
Summary: a lot of capability is steadily adding up
with H-Anim, and beginning to overlap with Medical and
CAD. <br>
<br>
Great observations below, Joe and Michalis! 8) Thank
you. Here are some reactions. <br>
<br>
We have had a lot of work to achieve progress towards
X3D version 4. (Don't know what the subject-line
"X3Dng" refers to.) Recent progress is confirming
that the work on X3D Object Model has been
fundamentally important as a way to ensure that the
entire X3D scene graph is consistent and coherent
across every file encoding and every programming
language binding. So we are really building for
scalable, repeatable success. <br>
<br>
Observation: SFRotation axis-angle representation is
mathematically equivalent to quaternions, so there is
no conversion issue there. Matrix rotations are also
almost-fully equivalent with only a few edge-case
anomalies like the possibility of exceptions when
computing inverses. So mapping to different forms of
rotations is not particularly difficult when using X3D
SFRotation, it just takes close attention to detail.
(One virtue of programming, even when challenging, is
that You Only Have To Get It Right Once.) <br>
<br>
Personally, am hoping to get back to work on the
BVH-mocap-to-X3D-interpolators converter code before
the end of the year. Goal is to have this open source
Java running and producing X3D animations, just like
Suwon University's C++ code did for their H-Anim Music
Video competition. That should establish a baseline
of 2 mocap-related implementations that can help us
continue to improve. <br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://svn.code.sf.net/p/x3d/code/www.web3d.org/x3d/tools/X3dEdit3.3/X3D/src/org/web3d/x3d/hanim/bvh/">https://svn.code.sf.net/p/x3d/code/www.web3d.org/x3d/tools/X3dEdit3.3/X3D/src/org/web3d/x3d/hanim/bvh/</a>
<br>
BvhSkeletonParameters.java <br>
Hierarchy.java <br>
Joint.java <br>
Motion.java <br>
<br>
All of the recent review activity and interest during
the H-Anim specifications review is certainly a
wonderful development. When all of the other H-Anim
specification comments are assembled from
participating ISO national standards bodies, we can
plan on an Specification Editors Meeting to consider
issues and best plans for resolutions. Meanwhile, as
time permits, the H-Anim and X3D Working Groups can
continue looking at the baseline mantis issues list to
prepare potential solutions. <br>
<br>
I also agree that the path to success lies through
implementation and evaluation. As we keep building
examples, and implementing conversions, and adding
tool support, am expecting the differences between
different approaches will appear simpler, clearer,
more adaptable, and easier to support. Similarly, it
makes no sense to change what we have in H-Anim until
we have direct evidence of problems or how to
accomplish potential improvements. <br>
<br>
Current H-Anim example models: <br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation</a>
<br>
<br>
Regarding importance of H-Anim tutorials: another
point well taken. Here is one with 97 slides (second
half includes slides + annotation notes). Questions,
corrections and suggestions for improvement welcome. <br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://x3dgraphics.com/slidesets/X3dForAdvancedModeling/HumanoidAnimation.pdf">http://x3dgraphics.com/slidesets/X3dForAdvancedModeling/HumanoidAnimation.pdf</a>
<br>
<br>
Does it make sense to add adaptation/conversion of
Blender character animations into H-Anim models as a
goal? Blender does have excellent general support for
X3D export/import (on its top-level File menu). If
so, we could add it to: <br>
<br>
web3D.org > PARTICIPATE > Projects Wish List
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.web3d.org/projects/wish-list">http://www.web3d.org/projects/wish-list</a>
<br>
<br>
Perhaps someone wants to look at Cobweb source and
help out with adding support for H-Anim nodes. Not so
hard, the pattern is somewhat similar to CAD nodes,
already implemented in X3DOM; yet another open-source
example implementation is available as X3D prototypes
(no Script needed) at: <br>
<br>
X3D Example Archives: Basic, Humanoid Animation,
HAnim Prototypes <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/HAnimPrototypesIndex.html">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/HAnimPrototypesIndex.html</a>
<br>
<br>
Cobweb Supported Components <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://titania.create3000.de/cobweb/#c426">http://titania.create3000.de/cobweb/#c426</a>
<br>
<br>
Looking further ahead. There is one more clarion
priority for H-Anim progress: modeling human joints,
bones, skin and motions at a resolution suitable for
medical applications and electronic health records.
Alignment of DICOM-standard medical imagery as X3D
volume presentations is another emerging major asset.
Common interest with CAD group in metadata
annotations, 3D printed parts (splints, prostheses,
devices) and 3D scanning is also truly compelling.
The CAD and medical workshops at the Web3D 2016
Conference in Anaheim a few months back showed that
much is possible. Early-exemplar case study: <br>
<br>
3D Printed Heart for Printed Preoperative Planning
<br>
Two views of a printed heart from MRI data <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.web3d.org/example/3d-printed-heart">http://www.web3d.org/example/3d-printed-heart</a>
<br>
<br>
Assembled and aligned together, with working tools +
repeatable workflows + validation of correctness, the
X3D family of technologies holds tremendous promise to
broadly improve medical understanding and
communication. <br>
<br>
All of this technical scrutiny is super valuable.
Having a constructive community is so valuable - we
avoid blunders and steadily build shared
understanding. <br>
<br>
Onward we go, step by step! Looking forward to
continuing progress together. <br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2016 5:06 PM, Joe D Williams wrote: <br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">It would be fantastic if e.g.
Blender armature animation was exported <br>
to X3D. It is already possible, as H-Anim supports
the necessary <br>
features --- what is miss is the actual code on
the side of Blender <br>
(Python) exporter to X3D. </p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Good idea, perhaps if the Blender animation data
exists so it can be made to work in interpolators. <br>
Sometimes the export of animation intended for
rendering to film or video is just a list of
completely rendered frames rather than an actual
realtime animation style. <br>
<br>
If the data exists to export keyframe keys and
keyvalues, then the rotations and translations
should be easy to get. In an 'old style' armature
they were not interested in joint rotation but
depended upon bone orientation. That is OK because
the purpose was to pose the artatmure for the next
frame, not to worry about interpolation since they
knew the target frame intervals. That is OK, bone
orientation and joint rotation is the same. <br>
<br>
Another detail is that the joint animation data may
be in unit quaternions, which is actually most
likely since it is the preferred form in collada and
glTF. Or, the data may use euler-type angles
(x-y-z) that need to be converted to x3d axis-angle
which can be straightforward. <br>
<br>
That is what Part 2 of new HAnim is about, how to
import mocap and other types of animation data.
First you consider the capture skeleton, then you
model it to a model of an HAnim 'standard' playback
skeleton, convert the keyvalues as required, create
the positon and orientation interpolators, then run
the thing. Everyone's comments on this Part 2 is
also appreciated. <br>
<br>
I don't think we want to also cover the idea of no
interps, just itty through the mocap keyvalues for
video or film fixed frame interval rendering and
capture. X3D's target is realtime or anytime and
everytime. Of course you also make video or film
using X3D. Same for 'general' coverage of this
anmation technology. Of course you can do anything
you want. You don't need study HAnim very long until
you learn that yes, you can define your own joint
hierarchy, use any names you wish, and attach any
kind of geometry and sensors you wish. If you want
to do different shaped skin, then fine. Finally, if
you understand the skelton setup, you can just fly
them joints around to achieve most any animations
possible with your model. You can easily adjust
animations with a keyboard, a text editor, and an
X3D player. <br>
<br>
Whatever you do, there are the same rules. Similar
skeletons with similar initial pose can exchange
skeletal animations. That is the most important
point of this entire effort. Exchange skins when
skeleton joint hierarchy, skin vertex count, order
of appearance in the user code, and feature point
relationships are the same. Sure we could tell that
story in a series of tutorials but this is a spec.
Maybe not this example, but the spec does not always
need to spell out the history or details that would
be obvious to an expert in the field, just the bare
implementation requirements. <br>
<br>
Again, capabilities in this spec can describe any
skeleton but I think we want to target something
concrete. Something that can have a set of reference
inputs and a set of reference outputs. Finally, we
want a 'standard' set of example animations that
work with each of the 'standard' LOA definitions. <br>
<br>
For this spec effort, the most important thing is
that Implementors get it right. If the
implementation can deliver a 'standard' humanoid
that uses 'standard' animations, then we have
something. If the implemetation gets it right, then
the users can get most anything out of it they want.
So that is why the HAnim spec targets the 'standard'
animatable humanoid. <br>
<br>
When we discuss general X3D animation facilities, of
which there are many, then that is the job of a set
of tutorials. Please recall that the spec is
addressing Implementors, and technicallly-oriented
users, not the general user. Usually the spec will
fail when it wanders into general tutorials aimed at
general users. <br>
<br>
Still, the idea of bringing something like the HAnim
DIsplacer up into the same bag of tools as other
styles and types of interpolators would be a fine
idea. I think that might be what Leonard was
mentioning when he said there are other more basic
tools than joint-actuated mesh deformation. It is
easy to recognize the Displacer as a basic mesh
animation tool that would be encountered in early
animation lessons. <br>
<br>
Thanks and Best, <br>
Joe <br>
<br>
<br>
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michalis
Kamburelis" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michalis.kambi@gmail.com"><michalis.kambi@gmail.com></a>
<br>
To: "Leonard Daly" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com"><Leonard.Daly@realism.com></a>
<br>
Cc: "Joe D Williams" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net"><joedwil@earthlink.net></a>;
"X3D Public" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a>
<br>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 10:34 PM <br>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Purpose of X3Dng --
Animation <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">2016-10-21 6:23 GMT+02:00
Leonard Daly <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com"><Leonard.Daly@realism.com></a>:
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">In all your writings you
appear to be making the assumption that
joint-based <br>
animation with deformable skin is H-Anim. That
is not true. </p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Hi, <br>
<br>
From my point of view, I see H-Anim as "the way to
do animation using <br>
skeletons, bones and (optional) skins in X3D". I
can easily do <br>
skeletal animation of anything (humans, pipes,
animals) with H-Anim. I <br>
actually implemented it in view3dscene, and really
there's nothing <br>
limiting this system to "humanoids". You just
transform the bones, and <br>
optionally deform a mesh following the per-vertex
weights. <br>
<br>
Maybe we could solve the issues raised here by
simply changing the <br>
wording (and some node names), to de-emphasize the
"humanoid" part in <br>
the H-Anim specifications. (The X3D component <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/hanim.html">http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/hanim.html</a>
<br>
and the H-Anim spec on <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://h-anim.org/Specifications/H-Anim200x/ISO_IEC_FCD_19774/">http://h-anim.org/Specifications/H-Anim200x/ISO_IEC_FCD_19774/</a>
). <br>
<br>
Such change would more accurately reflect H-Anim's
capabilities (in my view). <br>
<br>
How about we would simply rename H-Anim component
in X3D to "Skeletal <br>
Animation"? Some additional renames would be nice,
like removing the <br>
"HAnim*" prefix from nodes, and the main
"HAnimHumanoid" node could be <br>
something simpler like just a "Skeleton" (with the
primary field being <br>
"skeleton"). <br>
<br>
The fact that the H-Anim standard defines also a
standard "Structure <br>
of a humanoid" is just "an extra" for me. I mean,
it is valuable!, but <br>
it can also be simply ignored if you don't model a
humanoid (or don't <br>
care about standardizing your names, to transfer
the animations <br>
between other humanoids). <br>
<br>
Also, adding such "Skeletal Animation" component
to the "Immersive" <br>
(or even earlier) profile would be a nice touch.
It is a major <br>
animation method. Putting it inside a component
other than "Full" is a <br>
way of encouraging implementations of it.
Especially since it seems we <br>
do have a lot of implementations of it. <br>
<br>
It would be fantastic if e.g. Blender armature
animation was exported <br>
to X3D. It is already possible, as H-Anim supports
the necessary <br>
features --- what is miss is the actual code on
the side of Blender <br>
(Python) exporter to X3D. <br>
<br>
I hope that this opinion helps:) <br>
<br>
Best regards, <br>
Michalis </p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________ <br>
x3d-public mailing list <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>
<br>
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href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
all the best, Don </p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
<b>Leonard Daly</b><br>
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair<br>
President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>x3d-public mailing list</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
<b>Leonard Daly</b><br>
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair<br>
President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>x3d-public mailing list</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></pre>
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