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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>During the month of December the X3D working group invited two sets of guests for discussions. Since these are of general interest, it has been agreed that the minutes of those discussions, with permission from all attendees, should be shared on this public list.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>The first discussion took place on 7<sup>th</sup> December 2016, with Professor Philipp Slusallek and Stefan Lemme of Computergraphics Lab, Saarland University, who are working on XML3D, and a possible extension to X3D.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>The second discussion took place on 14<sup>th</sup> December 2016 with Dr. Frédéric Vogt of the European Southern Observatory in Chile. He is working on using X3D to 3D print and publish data visualizations from astrophysics research.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>==================================================================================================================<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><u>A. Discussion Topic from 7<sup>th</sup> December<o:p></o:p></u></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <u>XML3D and X3D Version 4 with Professor Philipp Slusallek and Stefan Lemme</u> (Web3D participants Don Brutzman, Joe Williams, Anita Havele, Roy Walmsley)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Follow up discussion to that originally held at Siggraph in August. Summary mail submitted by Philipp Slusallek to the public mailing list on August 15<sup>th</sup> 2016 (<a href="http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2016-August/005105.html">http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2016-August/005105.html</a>)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Reference: Lemme, Stefan, Sutter, Jan, Schlinkmann, Christian and Slusallek, Philipp. <i>The Basic Building Blocks of Declarative 3D on the Web. </i>Proceedings of the 21st International Conference on Web3D Technology of Web3D '16 , page 17-25. <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/2945292.2945303">http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/2945292.2945303</a>, <a href="https://graphics.cg.uni-saarland.de/index.php?id=921">https://graphics.cg.uni-saarland.de/index.php?id=921</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: We have been continuing the development of XML3D. There have been no fundamental changes. More work has been done on the compiler side. XML3D is a stable implementation, the current version being 5.2.1.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Philipp’s Web3D paper very helpful.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: We have some slides which could be made available soon.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: This is an X3D V4.0 architectural opportunity. We have to show backwards compatibility rather than strict alignment. We are working on correlating the event model between the two implementations X3DOM and Cobweb. The same example was illustrated in the two implementations a week ago.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: We are coming from a slightly different direction. We want a declarative approach, integrated into DOM within HTML5. We started from the side of HTML5, minimizing new concepts to do interactive 3D graphics in the DOM. We have full support for programmable GPUs. This is where concepts such as XFlow and ShadeJS come from. We show that layers can be built on top of that. The Web3D 2016 paper showed that core library. It relies on WebComponents. We can layer X3D on top of the core engine. We can do many X3D nodes, and probably could do most.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: We are focused on achieving a strong, high performance engine, integrated into the DOM / HTML5. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: Key difference is where X3D has a large number of nodes spread over specific domains, we tried to produce a minimal set of basic building blocks.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Maybe there is an area of overlap and synergy that could be built upon. The component approach is sensible. X3D has profiles, as well as Components, and even levels within Components. Implementers do not have to do everything, but can do small portions at a time. XML has the flexibility to optimize deeply. X3D has to be careful not to be over prescriptive about implementation.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: With regard to modularity and components I have two answers. One is that of breaking a larger system down into smaller components. Second is using WebComponents, building a layered approach. Demonstrations were shown at Web3D 2016, one of which was a character. It was not fully H-Anim, but one that could be built so. Key part of XML3D is the generic data representation, and the ability to apply computations to collections of fields. Data nodes capture sets of data (sets of buffers, in GPU terms). This concept does not exist on the X3D side, so more difficult to design backwards.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Referencing Figure 2 In the Web3D 2016 paper, particularly data elements, the Coordinate node has a set of vertices that can be shared. IndexedFaceSet could use Coordinate node. If I want to create IndexedLineSet, I would need to duplicate the Coordinate node. This shows that X3D does not have the representational capability of XML3D. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: In XML3D, data does not have semantic notation attached. The data is simply a float3 array. Semantics are only provided when data is attached to a mesh element.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: We do have strong typing for data in nodes. Coordinate has MFVec3f field, which is common to other nodes, such as Normal.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: We take a functional approach, advocating use of XML3D ideas into V4 of X3D (with admitted bias). What is the best way to include this? Use of XML3D has been shown to work. Other way might be to design new general nodes within X3D, and build other nodes from them.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Suggest we need to look at examples.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: Examples are a good idea. See our assets paper at Web3D 2014: Configurable Instances of 3D Models for Declarative 3D in the Web. (DOI: <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/2628588.2628594" target="_blank">10.1145/2628588.2628594</a>, <a href="https://graphics.cg.uni-saarland.de/2014/configurable-instances-of-3d-models-for-declarative-3d-in-the-web/" target="_blank">https://graphics.cg.uni-s...eclarative-3d-in-the-web/</a>)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Joe: Congratulations on good work. Higlighted Collada and glTF, H-Anim models, skin and bones animation, Displacer style, transport animation. Asked about Sensors?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: Two answers. One is many ways to specify mesh, skinning, morphing, animation etc. Not just the one way of doing things. XML3D took the approach to not codify one particular way, but provide building blocks to allow different techniques to be used without requiring data conversion. Have XFlow mechanism for defining the information. Then have operators to provide mapping. Flight deck (???) for Web3D paper on GitHub has example of character animation. (Need LINK). No programming needed. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Joe: Looking for other examples of implementations.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: Several papers have been published covering improved techniques for skinning. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: About glTF and Collada. Kristian provided a converter. XML3D has a format converter. Able to register new formats.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: SRC from Fraunhofer, now pretty well aligned with glTF. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: Have “BLAST” Paper: Blast: A Binary Large Structured Transmission Format for the Web (DOI: <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/2628588.2628599" target="_blank">10.1145/2628588.2628599</a>, <a href="https://graphics.cg.uni-saarland.de/2014/blast-a-binary-large-structured-transmission-format-for-the-web/" target="_blank">https://graphics.cg.uni-s...ssion-format-for-the-web/</a>). Blast designed to be useful for different types of data, not just geometry data. Not wanting to impose anything, just provide the ability. GPU data might be of various types. Some standard compression types, simply reference them. Otherwise can reference a URI to decompress (“code on demand”).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: Haven’t implemented SRC. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Have a JSON encoding. Also progress on EXI compression – W3C are changing the name to ‘Efficient Extensible Interchange’ to reflect application not just to XML, but also to JSON. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Roy: Re the implementation example referred to earlier, I would like to try in XML3D. Is the XML3D implementation available to test this?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: The current public implementation does not have the capabilities of the web components. The new version with the Web components is not yet available. It is still being a work in progress, not ready for public release. However, would be willing to share it on a bilateral basis. Concerned about giving a poor impression, as it has rough edges. It would, though, be an Interesting exercise to look at more complex X3D nodes to see how they might map.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: We have been working on JSON, which has a fully decorated schema. We also have an auto generated X3D Object Model, and are using it to auto generate a JAVA codebase. Might be able to also auto generate WebComponents structure for X3D nodes.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: Called the approach Declarative 3D. The technology stack is highlighted in Figure 5 of the Web3D 2016 paper. All use the same infrastructure. Performance improvements for all simply by improving core.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Anita: Two or three years ago, the W3C Declarative 3D group was formed, although it is no longer active. It included correlating XML3D and X3DOM. Have you been working with Fraunhofer?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: Not really working with them, as they stopped working on the declarative level. We didn’t have a project previously. Having started work with the introduction of WebComponents, we have the right technology to become standard. Happy to resurrect the Declarative 3D group, if there is interest.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Anita: The Declarative WebVR group is starting. There is overlap with the Declarative 3D group.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: WebVR not really declarative, although Tony Parisi presented some material at Siggraph. Declarative not well defined in the VR context.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: I like the idea of Declarative 3D group restarting.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Philipp: Have an implementation of WebVR within XML3D in 5.2 version. Expect WebVR to be one of those Level 5 libraries. We are interested in X3DOM approach to WebVR, and have a student who could do this. There is a lot of Interest in standardizing WebVR, and also Declarative 3D. Students are available. Prefer to start in the trenches with examples and coding. Standards follow.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>==================================================================================================================<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><u>B. Discussion Topic from 14<sup>th</sup> December<o:p></o:p></u></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <u>X3D and 3D Content in Scholarly Journals with Dr. Frédéric Vogt </u>(Web3D participants Vince Marchetti, Leonard Daly, Don Brutzman, Joe Williams, Anita Havele, Roy Walmsley)<u><o:p></o:p></u></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Connect scientific datasets to 3D graphics.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Vince: Priority with Web3D is to encourage adoption of X3D. What obstacles did you encounter? What can we do better?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Stumbled on X3D and managed to get things moving fairly rapidly. Datasets in astrophysics are very custom, with exotic file formats. Data is multidimensional. How to go from custom formats to X3D. Python module – MAYAVI (<a href="http://mayavi.sourceforge.net/">http://mayavi.sourceforge.net/</a>). How can scientists bridge gap? VTK exporter, has issues. Can create models. Recognize publication is important, even for career development. Have to deal with journal editors. One guy vs the big publishers. Able to meet editors, and get promotional agreement. Like the idea of online figures. This is just one set of journals within astrophysics. Difficult to standardize across all types of publications. Format itself an issue. Ability to include axes, grids, and labels is missing.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Vince: Axis discussion. Use MAYAVI python library.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: MAYAVI python library – supports axes, etc. Export does not support them though. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Vince: Working with publishers, recalled an attendee at Web3D 2016 from public library of science, whose interest was biology. What do you submit? X3D file or web page?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Send publishers the web page – X3D file + X3DOM wrapper. Important to include use of interaction buttons. These are a useful guide for the reader. Viewpoints and layers are useful. Different, of course, in every case. Recently discovered clip plane ability. Can make use of it to take measurements. Readers can do this down the line.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Roy: Should X3D have a grid node?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Leonard: No – too many variations – etc. Should be the realm of an application.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Like python module, easy to use. Blender, open source, but steep learning curve. MAYAVI can generate something with five lines of HTML code. Interactive and 3D.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Vince: X3D a text based format – can cut and paste readily. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Drew axes in MAYAVI, using lines and cylinders. X3D model is only a small part of the scientific process. Need to visualize and understand. Blender is generally too complicated. Need simple tools.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: MAYAVI – are you writing code and then exporting X3D?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Has python script, run script. Have 3D window, and export 3D model.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Will ensure is included on X3D resources file. MAYAVI is related to VTK. VTK generally responsive to suggestions and fixes. Should we be listing workflows, capabilities, etc. for these tool builders. What’s different about publishing with X3DOM and Cobweb as opposed to other HTML libraries? An inhibitor is that implementations don’t always have the advantage of extensibility. Don’t want a super node as already mentioned. Already good visualization tools available. Prototypes not available in X3DOM. Inlines useful with IMPORT / EXPORT events. Gotten pretty far on a prototype expander that acts as a pre-processor to work around a lack of prototypes.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Anita: Main goal to increase adoption of X3D and outreach. Would like to show case examples.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: In astrophysics, especially for radio observations, have been receiving 3D data for a long time. Have developed tools and ways of thinking into 2D chunks for presentation. Seeing more examples is good. Need to show how it can be done, and show the benefits of 3D presentation. Shows we can do things differently.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Anita: Documenting workflows to improve usage. Happy to display on our website, assuming it is open.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Everything is open, and available of GitHub. Have four examples now. Some basic to illustrate process. Another with full dataset. Happy to share and help on our site. GitHub site is: <a href="https://github.com/fpavogt/x3d-pathway">https://github.com/fpavogt/x3d-pathway</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Anita: We have a Web3D conference in June. Possibly a paper, or tutorials / workshop.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Bunch of wizards, authoring assists. Could make these more obvious. Liaise with others to make this more available, e.g. public library of science.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Agree need to interact. So far been very individual. Way forward is to create a momentum and get a global effort, and different scientific domains. Clip planes allow extraction of new information from the data. Good to have a tool to assist this.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: 3D printing workshop at Web3D 2016. Medical workshop – with cardiac surgeon and radiologist, illustrating a baby’s heart. Printing a 3D model shows the pathology that otherwise would not be seen until the patient was cut open. Part of the visualization and understanding.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Joe: Also seen the benefits in Chemistry, with molecules, etc. Is this a potential working group study area?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Vince: 3D models are shells, or contour lines. MAYAVI are computation tools that calculate those. Is volume rendering something that might be useful?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Data is essentially volumetric data. Not gone down this route yet is because of software limitations. Also, data is complex, so simpler shells / contour lines can be helpful. But volume rendering would be useful too.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-align:justify'>John: Could you export data into a template.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-align:justify'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-align:justify'>Frédéric: Has weird and custom file formats. Can import, but not well. Python gives the flexibility. Format is FITS (Flexible Image Transport System – see <a href="http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/">http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/</a>). All telescopic data is in this format. Say working with a 3D data cube. In Python it only takes a few lines to convert it to a text file.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-align:justify'>[ Post meeting note from John<b>: </b>There’s a JavaScript library in development for reading FITS:<b> </b><a href="https://github.com/astrojs/fitsjs/">https://github.com/astrojs/fitsjs/</a> I don’t know it’s applicability to this situation. ]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>John: How do you convert the images into shells? Are shells in a different file format to images?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Need a smoother, easier process. Need to convince people and demonstrate usefulness. Then have to show how difficult it is to use it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>John: Geographic projections with d3.js. Placement of geographic data on a web page. Thinking about multiple levels of coordinates. Suggestion to combine d3.js with x3dom.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Interesting analogy. Looking at sky, just the other way. Wide range of needs. Volume, shells, grids, annotations. Scientists ask for everything.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Tease out constructive paths forwards. Learning curves. Not just does it show value. Not just what do I need to do to make it work. But also, will it break next year? Longevity.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Always the argument on longevity. People always have strong opinion one way or the other. Have been doing without it for years – entrenched view. Supervisors and fund managers have to be convinced. There are some people that see the benefits and want to advance forward. Need to get journals on board. Need an X3D guru to provide support. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Anita: Consider ourselves a technology for serious 3D. Archivability, backwards compatibility. How did you learn about X3D?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Learnt about X3D two years ago. How, I forget. Looking at PDFs. Stumbled onto it by accident – took a lot less effort than PDFs. How to promote this? To some extent has to come from the field. Scientists have to lead by example.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Home web page – real time 3D. Now talking about real time 3D publication. Shift from text to 2D images probably had similar problems.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Change to 3D will happen. It is the tools and, primarily, the journal acceptance that will lead the way. SKA Consortium (<a href="https://www.skatelescope.org/">https://www.skatelescope.org/</a>) looking at using X3D.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Could also generate models of telescope. CSIRO also park of SKA. But already part of Web3D, but cultural heritage.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Anita: CSIRO also hosting the conference. How can X3D help? Would Frédéric be a champion in this field?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Consortium should think in terms of science, in general. How to promote in practice. If there was a contact point that would be helpful. Three way between the author, the Consortium, the journal.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Scientific X3D might be the name for this. Publication, education, are terms that are too broad.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Likes the idea of Scientific X3D. How do I have my X3D model validated? How do I publish it and have it available? Scientific X3D Working Group.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Vince: Sounds like Frédéric’s challenges are not the science, but the publishing. Caution, but some concern that different disciplines have different requirements, e.g. Medicine vs Astrophysics.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Still have similar problems. Might have units differences. Still asking the same general questions.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Joe: “Real Time Scientific Visualizations and Analysis on the World Wide Web”!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Don: Hope to have better practices emerge.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Roy: Is there a need for 4D? Time?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: If time was the fourth dimension – universe is dynamic. Absolutely clear need for this.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Joe: Helpful to focus this on astronomy and astrophysics. Historically Frédéric would get a couple of people together, and build a workflow, creating a focus working group. They could generate results useful for demonstration and presentation.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'>Frédéric: Getting to a stable point in one field would then allow pick up on this in other fields. This is an alternative approach.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>==================================================================================================================<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>All the best,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Roy Walmsley<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>X3D WG co-chair<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>