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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Andreas,<br>
<br>
I had expected this solution would work. The same thing (or nearly
so) would work with X3DOM. The 3D space is static and display
only. All manipulation of the space is done external to the 3D
environment. I see there are more messages and reply there for
other thoughts.<br>
<br>
Leonard Daly<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKdk67tx6oN8erzw8JAquxgMfG47a+98ZRMWugJuHXutcWu=zQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Leonard,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>here is a version of the example which uses cobweb with
cobweb-dom for DOM API use.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="https://x3d-v4-scripting-cobweb.glitch.me/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://x3d-v4-scripting-cobweb.glitch.me/</a><br>
</div>
<div>and</div>
<div><a
href="https://glitch.com/edit/#%21/x3d-v4-scripting-cobweb?path=index.html:63:1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://glitch.com/edit/#!/x3d-v4-scripting-cobweb?path=index.html:63:1</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The necessary changes were minor:</div>
<div>- The display area div needed to be replaced with a x3d
canvas</div>
<div>- The ball div needed to become a sphere shape transform</div>
<div>- The ball position is set via the translation attribute
rather than position style properties.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The viewpoint is at a distance such that 1px in the
original div rectangle corresponds to about 1m in the x3d
scene when viewed from the viewpoint.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Otherwise no changes are needed since full control via the
DOM API is possible.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I also found that I need to update cobweb-dom to work with
the latest cobweb since there were some changes in the cobweb
parser. The current cobweb-dom only works with cobweb <
3.0.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I suppose the next question is if one can use x3d scripts
instead of the html scripts or somehow mix and match. What
functionality should be provided in an x3d script ? The tricky
thing to try maybe to do the animation inside x3d but replace
the x3d interpolator with a custom interpolator from an html
script ? Maybe I can think of something.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Andreas</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 1:13 AM,
Andreas Plesch <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">andreasplesch@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>I went back to the cobweb repo to very carefully read
through the rather mind bending script node code in </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><a
href="https://github.com/create3000/cobweb/blob/master/cobweb.js/cobweb/Components/Scripting/Script.js"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/create3000/<wbr>cobweb/blob/master/cobweb.js/<wbr>cobweb/Components/Scripting/<wbr>Script.js</a></div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">and came to the conclusion that the x3d
scripts are only evaled once during initialization,
contrary to what I had thought. The script text is
cleverly appended with an array of all defined named
functions which then becomes the return value of the
eval call. These functions are then stored in a local
scope this.context object, essentially as methods. Then,
whenever a lifecycle function or a field function needs
to be executed, the context method is called.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">One could probably expose this context
object and then redefine its methods from Dom scripts.
However, one would lose the cobweb constructed "with"
"global" object which allows easy and standard access to
x3d functions and user defined fields. It could be
probably reconstructed if needed.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I may try to convert the example to cobweb
dom.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Andreas</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">-The formatting survived the direct mail
but not the route through the list probably because I
receive digests.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 11, 2017 9:03 PM,
"Leonard Daly" <<a
href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Leonard.Daly@realism.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="m_-7705566929662997561quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div
class="m_-7705566929662997561m_-2111562572881299261moz-cite-prefix">I
was asked by John to construct an example
illustrating the items listed below. I also
have replies to Andreas' comments. The
original message is at the bottom (for
reference). I've copied the relevant
questions/statements to the top to make
reading easier.<br>
<br>
First to the example. It is located at
<a
class="m_-7705566929662997561m_-2111562572881299261moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://tools.realism.com/development/WG-Support/2017-08-09/ScriptIllustration.html"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://tools.realism.com/devel<wbr>opment/WG-Support/2017-08-09/<wbr>ScriptIllustration.html</a><br>
It does not use Cobweb since I can't begin to
figure out how to do this in Cobweb. OTOH, if
X3D is DOM integrated, then the it shouldn't
matter where various functions and methods are
located.<br>
<br>
The example is strictly 2D, but I think it
clearly illustrates the goal. The default Y
interpolator is nothing (no change). Selecting
different buttons change the interpolator in
real-time. Each interpolator is defined as a
function. The variable 'changeY' holds the
current interpolator. When a button is
pressed, the value of 'changeY' is set to the
selected interpolator. There is no 'case'
statement the uses the correct interpolator on
each pass through the animation loop.<br>
<br>
John if this doesn't illustrate the concept,
please explain what you need to see.<br>
<br>
Andreas, you have done and continue to do a
lot in support of web 3D, especially wrt to
X3DOM. I continue to be impressed with your
solutions to problems presented to that list.
[I'll have one soon, with a potential
solution.]<br>
<br>
<br>
<div><font color="#3333ff">AP: Mixing DOM and
x3d scripts is inherently problematic
since x3d scripts expect their own
environment (scope). But let's see.</font></div>
<div><font color="#3333ff"> </font></div>
<font color="#3333ff">AP: Not sure if x3d
scripts should be available globally, eg. as
window.foo which means foo is global. This
would mean that any other script or
framework needs to be careful not to use the
same function names.<br>
<br>
AP: window.x3d should be nicer, as a
dedicated namespace. x3dom uses the x3dom
namespace.</font><br>
<br>
If X3D and HTML are fully integrated then they
will be mixed. It is now common practice to
put library methods into their own namescope.
This namescope is not limited, but is prefixed
by a known library label (e.g., x3dom, THREE,
etc.). Mandating that X3D in HTML use the
'x3d' namescope would cause problems if
someone wanted to run two different libraries
from the same HTML context. iframe can fix
that, but it seems overly restrictive.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <font
color="#009900">function bar(event, time)
{<br>
window.foo = bar; // I
would (perhaps) settle for window.x3d.foo
= bar;<br>
}<br>
</font><br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<font color="#3333ff">AP: This currently does
not work since cobweb goes back to the
original function source each time the
script is run. But the x3d script could
probably use internally a global HTML script
function which can be redefined at will, to
enable a hook into an x3d script.</font><br>
<br>
[<font color="#009900">1] <br>
</font>
<blockquote><font color="#009900"><Script
...> <!-- X3D Script node --><br>
function foo (event, time) {<br>
window.bar = foo;<br>
}<br>
</script></font><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<font color="#3333ff">AP: This probably
already works since cobweb evals the
function text almost as is.</font>
<div><font color="#3333ff"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#3333ff">Is this the same as</font></div>
<div><br>
<font color="#009900">[2]<br>
</font></div>
<blockquote>
<div><font color="#009900">var foo =
function (event, time) {do_work;};</font></div>
<div><font color="#009900">window.bar = foo;</font></div>
</blockquote>
<div><font color="#3333ff"> ?</font></div>
<br>
It seems to me that eval the script text each
time, especially in an animation loop, is
needlessly expensive. <br>
The two examples (indented if that works in
your mail reader) are not the same. The first
example sets window.bar to be 'foo' each time
it runs. The second example only sets
window.bar to be 'foo' after the definition is
processed. If there is something else setting
window.bar after the 'foo' function definition
is processed, then that definition to 'foo' is
never used.<br>
<br>
<br>
<font color="#3333ff">AP: What does the SAI
say about manipulating or calling x3d script
functions from the outside ? You may only be
able to remove and add complete script nodes
but not work with the script functions ?</font>
<div><font color="#3333ff"><br>
</font></div>
<font color="#3333ff">AP: Proposed text would
be great. For now, it may be productive to
settle for slightly less integration by
keeping x3d scripts pretty much internal to
the x3d context but allow x3d scene control
via the DOM, eg. make x3d nodes similar to
svg/html elements.</font><br>
<br>
<br>
This is my main point. DOM is an API. If X3D
chooses to define an API in HTML, then it must
be done so as not to interfere with the DOM
API. Developers will use the DOM API to do
things anyway. X3D should only expand on that,
not restrict that. Anything less would not be
full integration. There is no such thing as an
SVG Script tag. It is located in the same
space all all HTML scripts.<br>
<br>
<br>
Leonard Daly<br>
<br>
P.S. I hope all of the formatting and styling
worked.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 8/11/2017 7:33 AM, Andreas Plesch wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Date:
Thu, 10 Aug 2017 18:31:25 -0700<br>
From: Leonard Daly <<a
href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Leonard.Daly@realism.com</a>><br>
To: John Carlson <<a
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>,
X3D Graphics public mailing<br>
list <<a
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>,
Web3D Consortium <<a
href="mailto:consortium@web3d.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">consortium@web3d.org</a>><br>
Cc: X3D Graphics Working Group <<a
href="mailto:x3d@web3d.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">x3d@web3d.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] [x3d] X3D
Specification Relationships<br>
diagram<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Leonard, thanks for raising this,
and I appreciate your attempt to rally
broader support around v4 and web
compatibility. I continue to do what I
can which is not too much these days.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> On
8/10/2017 5:17 PM, John Carlson wrote:<br>
><br>
> Leonard wrote:<br>
><br>
> >and node name collisions
(i.e., Script).<br>
><br>
> There has been quite a bit of
progress with this and X3DJSONLD and<br>
> X3DOM. It?s been under the covers
because I have not advertised it<br>
> much. I have several scripts
running, but not the full complement
of<br>
> my examples. It does not run the
X3D event model yet, except for<br>
> initialize().<br>
><br>
> Cobweb of course, already handles
this, so quit bellyaching.<br>
><br>
<br>
Cobweb even with Andreas' DOM
interface extensions does not
integrate<br>
with the DOM regarding Scripts. A full
integration would allow the<br>
following:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mixing DOM and x3d scripts is
inherently problematic since x3d
scripts expect their own environment
(scope). But let's see.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
X3D Script function called 'foo'<br>
HTML script function called 'bar'<br>
<br>
In the body of bar, I should be able
to redefine 'foo'. It is (in a<br>
fully integrated system) available as
window.foo. Similarly for inside<br>
of 'foo' to change 'bar'.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Not sure if x3d scripts should be
available globally, eg. as window.foo
which means foo is global. This would
mean that any other script or
framework needs to be careful not to
use the same function names.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
function bar(event, time) {<br>
window.foo = bar; // I
would (perhaps) settle for<br>
window.x3d.foo = bar;<br>
}<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>window.x3d should be nicer, as a
dedicated namespace. x3dom uses the
x3dom namespace.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This currently does not work since
cobweb goes back to the original
function source each time the script
is run. But the x3d script could
probably use internally a global HTML
script function which can be redefined
at will, to enable a hook into an x3d
script.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
and<br>
<br>
<Script ...> <!-- X3D
Script node --><br>
function foo (event, time) {<br>
window.bar = foo;<br>
}<br>
</script><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This probably already works since
cobweb evals the function text almost
as is.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is this the same as</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>var foo = function (event, time)
{do_work;};</div>
<div>window.bar = foo;</div>
<div> ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> I
should be able to construct an object
with 'foo' as a method. E.g.,<br>
<br>
var globalVar = {};<br>
globalVar.x3d = foo;<br>
<br>
// should call the X3D script passing
it a reference to the current<br>
value of 'event' and 'time'.<br>
globalVar.x3d(event, time);<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It may be possible to 'export'
named x3d script functions to
window.x3d, so they can be called.
cobweb would currently redefine a
named function each time an x3d script
is executed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br>
Inside 'foo' I should be able to
access any DOM element to get it's<br>
current state or even establish an
event listener.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You should be able to do that in
cobweb now although it would be
strange to find DOM code in an X3D
script. Perhaps for HUD of GUI
purposes it could be useful, actually.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
I know there are some things that
Cobweb can do, but there has been no<br>
discussions in the WG for the language
that would be necessary to ensure<br>
HTML/DOM/X3D interaction like I
described above.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What does the SAI say about
manipulating or calling x3d script
functions from the outside ? You may
only be able to remove and add
complete script nodes but not work
with the script functions ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br>
Unrolling scripts on the server (or at
least not in the runtime of the<br>
browser) is all fine and good, but
again there has been no discussion in<br>
the WG as to how to even approach
writing that up.<br>
<br>
I will be happy to be (relatively)
quiet on these points if someone can<br>
show me working examples and proposed
text to make this work.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Proposed text would be great. For
now, it may be productive to settle
for slightly less integration by
keeping x3d scripts pretty much
internal to the x3d context but allow
x3d scene control via the DOM, eg.
make x3d nodes similar to svg/html
elements.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Andreas</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br>
<br>
--<br>
*Leonard Daly*<br>
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair<br>
President, Daly Realism - /Creating
the Future/<br>
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<div><br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><font
color="#888888"> </font></font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><font
color="#888888"> -- <br>
<div
class="m_-7705566929662997561m_-2111562572881299261gmail_signature">Andreas
Plesch<br>
39 Barbara Rd.<br>
Waltham, MA 02453</div>
</font></font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><font
color="#888888"> </font></font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><font
color="#888888"> <br>
<fieldset
class="m_-7705566929662997561m_-2111562572881299261mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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</pre>
</font></font></span></blockquote>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><font
color="#888888">
<p><br>
</p>
<div
class="m_-7705566929662997561m_-2111562572881299261moz-signature">--
<br>
<font
class="m_-7705566929662997561m_-2111562572881299261tahoma,arial,helvetica
m_-7705566929662997561m_-2111562572881299261san
m_-7705566929662997561m_-2111562572881299261serif"
color="#333366"> <font size="+1"><b>Leonard
Daly</b></font><br>
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair<br>
President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating
the Future</i></font></div>
</font></font></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Andreas
Plesch<br>
39 Barbara Rd.<br>
Waltham, MA 02453</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<font class="tahoma,arial,helvetica san serif" color="#333366">
<font size="+1"><b>Leonard Daly</b></font><br>
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Chair<br>
President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i>
</font></div>
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