<div dir="auto">Hi Doug and list,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">please find below Doug's response to the request for spec. comments.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I agree with Michalis that modulating by multiplying the multiple sources of transparency instead of defining priorities is really a separate concern.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">-Andreas</div><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 12, 2017 9:40 AM, "doug sanden" <<a href="mailto:highaspirations@hotmail.com">highaspirations@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Andreas,<br>
(please forward to x3d-public - I'm not subscribed)<br>
Spec change?<br>
There was that specification complaint by a few (Michalis and Doug): replace vs modulation in lighting model:<br>
currently replace:<br>
texture > CPV > material<br>
modulate:<br>
texture x CPV x material<br>
Modulate would in theory give us more permutations to play with, but would break old scenes.<br>
<a href="http://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/KelpForestExhibit/SharkLefty.x3d" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://x3dgraphics.com/<wbr>examples/X3dForWebAuthors/<wbr>KelpForestExhibit/SharkLefty.<wbr>x3d</a><br>
- has material, CPV and texture<br>
<br>
Same with transparency - it could be modulated with spec change, breaking old scenes.<br>
For example if you have a texture with transparency, and on top of that you want to apply an overall material transparency, it doesn't work because image.transparancy > material.transparency<br>
<a href="http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/DebateModulateAlpha/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://dug9.users.sourceforge.<wbr>net/web3d/tests/<wbr>DebateModulateAlpha/</a><br>
- 2 scenes with image transparency. _05 has material transparency set to .5<br>
- I have this scene working in freewrl right now with an internal half-modulation setting, at the expense of some other scenarios not rendering as per specs.<br>
- the _10 (material transparency 1.0) scenes: freewrl and view3dscene show no sphere (invisible)<br>
-- Octaga, Instant, H3D show sphere with texture transparency pattern<br>
-- Vivaty white-screens<br>
<br>
-Doug<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>__________<br>
From: Andreas Plesch <<a href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com">andreasplesch@gmail.com</a>><br>
Sent: November 11, 2017 4:06 PM<br>
To: Don Brutzman<br>
Cc: Roy Walmsley; <a href="mailto:support@okino.com">support@okino.com</a>; Michalis Kamburelis; Patrick Dähne; Holger Seelig; Johannes Behr; Max Limper; X3D Graphics public mailing list; doug sanden<br>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Problem with inverted polygons/normals: actually texture transparency<br>
<br>
Well, my remark was an attempt to lower expectations for specification comments. But perhaps there is an ambiguity which can be addressed.<br>
<br>
So I would say x_cite is wrong but with the major qualifier that it may be unreasonable to expect transparency to be rendered perfectly for any situation especially in the presence of a misleading alpha channel.<br>
<br>
Andreas<br>
<br>
On Nov 11, 2017 1:08 PM, "Don Brutzman" <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutz<wbr>man@nps.edu</a>>> wrote:<br>
Sorry Andreas, am looking but still not understanding whether inconsistent rendering (for image textures that contain alpha channel information) is a specification issue or not. Patrick indicated (below) that the specification is ambiguous, i.e. "none of the browsers is wrong or right."<br>
<br>
Either the specification needs to be more precise, or else some browser implementations are erroneous.<br>
<br>
<br>
Opinions by X3D browser implementers please, which is it?<br>
<br>
17.2.2 Lighting model<br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/lighting.html#Lightingmodel" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/<wbr>documents/specifications/<wbr>19775-1/V3.3/Part01/<wbr>components/lighting.html#<wbr>Lightingmodel</a><br>
<br>
18.2.1 Texture map formats<br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/texturing.html#TextureMapFormats" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/<wbr>documents/specifications/<wbr>19775-1/V3.3/Part01/<wbr>components/texturing.html#<wbr>TextureMapFormats</a><br>
<br>
18.2.2 Texture map image formats<br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/texturing.html#TextureMapImageFormats" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/<wbr>documents/specifications/<wbr>19775-1/V3.3/Part01/<wbr>components/texturing.html#<wbr>TextureMapImageFormats</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11/9/2017 7:06 AM, Andreas Plesch wrote:<br>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 08:04:52 -0800<br>
From: Don Brutzman <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutz<wbr>man@nps.edu</a>>><br>
To: 'Patrick D?hne' <<a href="mailto:pdaehne@gmail.com">pdaehne@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:pdaehne@gmail.com">pdae<wbr>hne@gmail.com</a>>>, Michalis Kamburelis<br>
<<a href="mailto:michalis.kambi@gmail.com">michalis.kambi@gmail.com</a><<wbr>mailto:<a href="mailto:michalis.kambi@gmail.com">michalis.kambi@gmail.<wbr>com</a>>>, Roy Walmsley <<a href="mailto:roy.walmsley@ntlworld.com">roy.walmsley@ntlworld.com</a><<wbr>mailto:<a href="mailto:roy.walmsley@ntlworld.com">roy.walmsley@ntlworld.<wbr>com</a>>><br>
Cc: 'X3D Graphics public mailing list' <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x<wbr>3d-public@web3d.org</a>>>, Mario<br>
Nagamura <<a href="mailto:mnagamur@lsi.usp.br">mnagamur@lsi.usp.br</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:mnagamur@lsi.usp.br">mn<wbr>agamur@lsi.usp.br</a>>>, Marcello Zuffo <<a href="mailto:mkzuffo@usp.br">mkzuffo@usp.br</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:mkzuffo@usp.br">mkzuffo<wbr>@usp.br</a>>>, Barb<br>
Helfer <<a href="mailto:blhelfer@gmail.com">blhelfer@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:blhelfer@gmail.com">blh<wbr>elfer@gmail.com</a>>>, <<a href="mailto:support@okino.com">support@okino.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:support@okino.com">supp<wbr>ort@okino.com</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Problem with inverted polygons/normals:<br>
actually texture transparency<br>
<br>
Patrick: really great. Thank you.<br>
<br>
Your replacement version is uploaded and checked in (25% smaller), Shay D Pixel has become less shy and is fully with us now. 8)<br>
<br>
<a href="http://x3dGraphics.com/examples/X3dForAdvancedModeling/ShayDPixel/pixelModel_BaseColor.png" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://x3dGraphics.com/<wbr>examples/<wbr>X3dForAdvancedModeling/<wbr>ShayDPixel/pixelModel_<wbr>BaseColor.png</a><br>
<br>
The first .png version was converted from original .tga Targa image using latest GIMP. If further image scrutiny is desired by anyone, all original .tga images now available at<br>
<a href="http://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForAdvancedModeling/ShayDPixel/images/originals/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://x3dgraphics.com/<wbr>examples/<wbr>X3dForAdvancedModeling/<wbr>ShayDPixel/images/originals/</a><br>
<br>
(No good deed goes unpunished!) Request: who is writing up the specification feedback issue?<br>
<br>
Web3D Standards Comment Form<br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/content/web3d-standards-comment-form" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/content/<wbr>web3d-standards-comment-form</a><br>
<br>
<br>
To me the issue does not seem to impact the standard. Each browser<br>
does its best to render transparency.<br>
<br>
It is an implementation and authoring issue. Perhaps it is a case for<br>
adding guidance in the ImageTexture tooltip: "If the texture is<br>
opaque, omitting the alpha channel in the image file can help avoid<br>
rendering artefacts related to transparency and reduce file size."<br>
<br>
-Andreas<br>
<br>
Excellent, thank you, now added to ImageTexture and (slightly edited) to PixelTexture. Also improved hints for TextureProperties node.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#ImageTexture" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/<wbr>tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#<wbr>ImageTexture</a><br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#PixelTexture" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/<wbr>tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#<wbr>PixelTexture</a><br>
<a href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#TextureProperties" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/<wbr>tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#<wbr>TextureProperties</a><br>
<br>
On 11/8/2017 7:51 AM, Roy Walmsley wrote:<br>
Patrick,<br>
<br>
Great spot. Thank you.<br>
<br>
That also explains the behaviour of my Coin3D viewer. It saves transparent objects to render after opaque objects, and I had it set to sort transparent objects by distance.<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
<br>
Roy<br>
<br>
On 11/8/2017 7:45 AM, Michalis Kamburelis wrote:<br>
2017-11-08 16:27 GMT+01:00 Patrick D?hne <<a href="mailto:pdaehne@gmail.com">pdaehne@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:pdaehne@gmail.com">pdae<wbr>hne@gmail.com</a>>>:<br>
As soon as the texture file contains an alpha channel, X3D browsers classify shapes with that texture as transparent shapes. Rendering transparent shapes is difficult. Browsers handle transparent shapes differently. Instant Player and X3DOM write transparent objects to the depth buffer. Most other browser don?t. In this special case, the result of Instant Player and X3DOM looks better than result of other browsers, but that is pure coincidence. None of the browsers is wrong or right.<br>
<br>
And view3dscene looks at the texture contents to decide whether to use<br>
alpha testing (which doesn't have problems with ordering) or alpha<br>
blending (which is indeed tricky, but can represent partial<br>
transparency). It can be overridden by "alphaChannel" field,<br>
<a href="https://castle-engine.sourceforge.io/x3d_implementation_texturing_extensions.php#section_ext_alpha_channel_detection" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://castle-engine.<wbr>sourceforge.io/x3d_<wbr>implementation_texturing_<wbr>extensions.php#section_ext_<wbr>alpha_channel_detection</a><br>
.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Michalis<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: x3d-public [mailto:<a href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org">x3d-public-bounces@<wbr>web3d.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org">x3d-public-<wbr>bounces@web3d.org</a>>] On Behalf Of Patrick D?hne<br>
Sent: 08 November 2017 15:27<br>
To: X3D Graphics public mailing list <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x<wbr>3d-public@web3d.org</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Problem with inverted polygons/normals<br>
<br>
Am 07.11.2017 um 16:17 schrieb Don Brutzman <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutz<wbr>man@nps.edu</a>>>:<br>
<br>
Initial draft version of an interesting new model is available at<br>
<br>
Shay D Pixel Version 2<br>
<a href="http://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForAdvancedModeling/ShayDPixel/ShayDPixelVersion2Index.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://x3dgraphics.com/<wbr>examples/<wbr>X3dForAdvancedModeling/<wbr>ShayDPixel/<wbr>ShayDPixelVersion2Index.html</a><br>
<br>
This version was exported from an .fbx version using Okino Nugraf. Original at<br>
<br>
<a href="http://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForAdvancedModeling/ShayDPixel/pixel_v2.fbx" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://x3dgraphics.com/<wbr>examples/<wbr>X3dForAdvancedModeling/<wbr>ShayDPixel/pixel_v2.fbx</a><br>
<br>
It looks OK in several players (such as Instant Reality and X3DOM) but polygon ordering appears reversed in X_ITE. Adjusting the solid field hasn't helped. Perhaps a normal issue?<br>
<br>
Wondering if anyone else can figure out what is going on here, screenshot attached for clarity. TIA for all help.<br>
<br>
<br>
The texture of the model contains an alpha channel. Remove the alpha channel from the texture, and everything looks right.<br>
<br>
As soon as the texture file contains an alpha channel, X3D browsers classify shapes with that texture as transparent shapes. Rendering transparent shapes is difficult. Browsers handle transparent shapes differently. Instant Player and X3DOM write transparent objects to the depth buffer. Most other browser don?t. In this special case, the result of Instant Player and X3DOM looks better than result of other browsers, but that is pure coincidence. None of the browsers is wrong or right.<br>
<br>
Bye,<br>
<br>
Patrick<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 11:15:52 -0500<br>
From: Russ Kinter <<a href="mailto:pyth7@verizon.net">pyth7@verizon.net</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:pyth7@verizon.net">pyth<wbr>7@verizon.net</a>>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3<wbr>d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>
Subject: [x3d-public] Instant Player Sound Issue on Windows 10<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:15f9c6a8c9c-c09-144bc@webjas-vad212.srv.aolmail.net">15f9c6a8c9c-c09-144bc@webjas-<wbr>vad212.srv.aolmail.net</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:15f9c6a8c9c-c09-144bc@webjas-vad212.srv.aolmail.net"><wbr>15f9c6a8c9c-c09-144bc@webjas-<wbr>vad212.srv.aolmail.net</a>>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi All,<br>
Instant Player 64 bit will not play this simple test file on a new laptop with Windows 10:<br>
<a href="http://www.deepmatrix.org/Sound_test/Sound_test.wrl" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.deepmatrix.org/<wbr>Sound_test/Sound_test.wrl</a><br>
<br>
All other VRML browsers, including FreeWRL will play the file on the same laptop.<br>
My wife's laptop with Windows 10 won't play the file either using Instant Player 64 bit.<br>
<br>
However, an older version of Instant Player WILL play the file on my XP midtower.<br>
<br>
Does anyone else with Windows 10 have sound issues with Instant Player 64 bit?<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
Russ Kinter<br>
<br>
all the best, Don<br>
--<br>
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzm<wbr>an@nps.edu</a>><br>
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA <a href="tel:%2B1.831.656.2149" value="+18316562149">+1.831.656.2149</a><tel:%2B1.831.656.2149><br>
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics <a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://faculty.nps.edu/<wbr>brutzman</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>