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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>If it is not in the standard, can we identify what’s in JoeKick and BoxMan that Joe wants to see in X3DOM and X_ITE? Is it the same as Leonard’s proposal?</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks for you hard work. Sorry I’m managing.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>John</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com">Andreas Plesch</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, May 29, 2018 5:06 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:Leonard.Daly@realism.com">Leonard Daly</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] [x3dom-users] both X3DOM and X_ITE.</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Yes, it is unclear why morphing and skinning should be restricted to</p><p class=MsoNormal>humanoids (which sounds a little like androids but more scary :) ).</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I would just target the hierarchy nodes, eg. the simple</p><p class=MsoNormal>Transform/Grouping style nodes as they already work after (scriptless)</p><p class=MsoNormal>expanding/templating. This should be hopefully not too much work, and</p><p class=MsoNormal>only contribute a little more to xdom's already too large code size.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I do not have good idea how to do the vertex animation efficiently,</p><p class=MsoNormal>eg. in the shader, other than a lot of effort.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Cheers,</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>-Andreas</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Leonard Daly <Leonard.Daly@realism.com> wrote:</p><p class=MsoNormal>> Andreas,</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> I have made the suggestions that X3D V4 include a "skin & bones" animation</p><p class=MsoNormal>> node that is not H-Anim. This would be a basic skin animation based on</p><p class=MsoNormal>> movement of bones, independent of any H-Anim body structure or naming</p><p class=MsoNormal>> conventions. It is needed when animating flexible material such as cables,</p><p class=MsoNormal>> hoses, material, etc. This node could form the basics of H-Anim skin</p><p class=MsoNormal>> animation. I do not have a formal written proposal at this time.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Leonard Daly</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> The Nancy prototypes example does not have scripts and was therefore</p><p class=MsoNormal>> easier to adapt. It turns out the included HUD was the only obstacle</p><p class=MsoNormal>> for have it work with x3dom and the protoexpander:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> https://x-ite-nancy-protos.glitch.me/index.xhtml</p><p class=MsoNormal>> uses</p><p class=MsoNormal>> https://x-ite-nancy-protos.glitch.me/NancyPrototypesNoHUD.json</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> The HUD reorientation routing is disabled here but the animation buttons</p><p class=MsoNormal>> work.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> So this should make this example a good target for basic, native hanim.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/HAnim/ObjectInterfaces.html</p><p class=MsoNormal>> http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/hanim.html</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> are the specifications to go by ?</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Are Protos in</p><p class=MsoNormal>> http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/HAnim/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA0ExampleSourceInVRML</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> the same as the Nancy protos ?</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> -Andreas</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 11:20 PM, Andreas Plesch</p><p class=MsoNormal>> <andreasplesch@gmail.com> wrote:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Ok, I will try to take out the scripts and make the example work with</p><p class=MsoNormal>> x3dom and John's expander, maybe further simplify. The next step would</p><p class=MsoNormal>> be to take a stab at blindly porting the proto's to x3dom and thereby</p><p class=MsoNormal>> discover potential problems.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 7:26 PM, Joseph D Williams</p><p class=MsoNormal>> <joedwil@earthlink.net> wrote:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Real fine, Andreas. Nancy is a ‘simple’ humanoid where simple means that</p><p class=MsoNormal>> geometry is child of segment which gets driven by joint. When the joint</p><p class=MsoNormal>> moves a segment, then the geometry moves as expected. Simple means the basic</p><p class=MsoNormal>> hierarchy but no continuous-mesh skin.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Simple or Basic humanoid may be good target target then. Perhaps Basic</p><p class=MsoNormal>> is in a Profile ? I should look at the new spec.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> As you can see from the protos, nothing special about x3d is required</p><p class=MsoNormal>> because x3d is already so special – that is unless you wanna get some real</p><p class=MsoNormal>> skin in the game.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Yes, there is no script required to do that ‘simple’ character, and the</p><p class=MsoNormal>> protos do not require any scripting.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> ok.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> The Nancy scripts are derived from the protos given in HAnim Part 1 Annex A</p><p class=MsoNormal>> examples (VRML at this moment, but easy to figure out). So for a basic</p><p class=MsoNormal>> humanoid there is nothing really new except the names of the various</p><p class=MsoNormal>> humanoid skeleton and skin objects. Even the animations are completely</p><p class=MsoNormal>> standard interpolators. Again, the only tough part is getting the skin to</p><p class=MsoNormal>> work.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Also please notice in the spec where it is possible to create the</p><p class=MsoNormal>> continuous-mesh skin from selected vertices of geometry that is part of a</p><p class=MsoNormal>> segment. That is a possible way to leverage from geometries of the segments</p><p class=MsoNormal>> to a full continuous-mesh surface.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Sounds like something you really need a authoring system for.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> -Andreas</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> A collection is here:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/0MainStageScene0818.x3dv</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/HAnimCollection20130818.zip</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/JoeX3D/JoeX3D.htm</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> some other pieces:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Thanks and Best,</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> http://hypermultimedia.com/acontents.htm</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> From: Andreas Plesch</p><p class=MsoNormal>> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 3:28 PM</p><p class=MsoNormal>> To: Joseph D Williams</p><p class=MsoNormal>> Cc: John Carlson; x3dom mlist; X3D Graphics public mailing list</p><p class=MsoNormal>> Subject: Re: both X3DOM and X_ITE.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> A quick follow up:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/NancyDivingProtoInstancesIndex.html</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> seems to be a good example for proto-based HAnim.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> It works in x_ite and perhaps is expandable.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> The scripts do not seem to part of the proto's ? If not, perhaps it is</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> possible to simplify and take those out ?</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> -Andreas</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch@gmail.com></p><p class=MsoNormal>> wrote:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Joseph D Williams</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> <joedwil@earthlink.net> wrote:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> From: Andreas Plesch</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> There just does not seem a lot of demand or requests by users or</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> customers. Of course, this may be a chicken and egg problem.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> And, that if you hae soething that works, like contact and instant, maybe</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> you don’t need to complain.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Or on the web look for other,widely available technologies.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Contributions to x3dom or x_ite are always welcome, in any case.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Great a contribution to either is a contribution to X3D.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Well said.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> For x3dom, my interest would be probably the glTF angle. glTF has</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> character animation. Here is an example:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> https://www.donmccurdy.com/2017/11/06/creating-animated-gltf-characters-with-mixamo-and-blender/></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Great, I will look. The basic x3d hanim skeleton, bindings, animations,</p><p class=MsoNormal>> and</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> geometries can be stored in gltf. I hope I can look back in the hanim</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> archives to see a comparison I did. No doubt gltf can transport the good</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> stuff with the only problem that gltf uses unit quats instead of</p><p class=MsoNormal>> axis-angle.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> x3dom uses quats internally anyways, I think rotation field values are</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> immediately converted at parsing.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> The best explanation, apart from studying glTF loaders, is apparently</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> in this figure, sorry about that:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KhronosGroup/glTF/master/specification/2.0/figures/gltfOverview-2.0.0a.png</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> OK, I will look for more recent info, but I don’t think anything in this</p><p class=MsoNormal>> has</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> changed. Structure and data – names may be different but the data and its</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> application is the same. Now I know there may be some new tech but for</p><p class=MsoNormal>> the</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> basics stuf, not much has changed in the last 20 years since hanim was</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> specified.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> The glTF spec. itself, I think, refers to the figure to explain meaning.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> translation of a simple glTF character to an HAnim humanoid would be a</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> good first step.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> A better first step would be to transcode an HAnim humanoid into gltf and</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> back again. From what I saw it would work. After all, it is all the same</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> structure and same data. I was going to work on the Boxman and the</p><p class=MsoNormal>> JoeKick</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> models in the x3d hanim example archives.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Well, these are two steps. The simplest rigged skining glTF example seems</p><p class=MsoNormal>> to be:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glTF-Sample-Models/tree/master/2.0/RiggedSimple</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> A functional, minimal subset of HAnim of nodes and/or a Proto-based</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> implementation of the nodes would also help implementers.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Of course we have the proto-based nodes for HAnim where the geometries</p><p class=MsoNormal>> are</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> children of Segments (bones) and we animate the skeleton. A prototype for</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> seamless skin animation is Boxman in x3d hanim archives - it needs a</p><p class=MsoNormal>> fancy</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> script to move skin. Since there are no other features of x3d that</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> approximate the way skin is animated, there are no scriptless prototypes.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Ok: Here is the link:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/HAnimPrototypesIndex.html</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> But I do not see scripts ?</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Will there be an proto update for the new version of HAnim ?</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> A main challenge will be probably the requirement to have vertex</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> geometry manipulation in a shader on the GPU. This is done only for</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> displacement textures of a CommonSurfaceShader node currently in</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> x3dom.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Yes, we need to control individual ‘skin’ vertices according to a simple</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> weighting algorithm depending upon rotation of one or more joints. That</p><p class=MsoNormal>> has</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> been a problem, yet it is so basic, that and morph shape, that we should</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> have both features outside the Humanoid container.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Yes, morphing seems generally useful. I think glTF may use weighted</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> matrices but not sure.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> If anyone wants to learn character animation, anything you learn about</p><p class=MsoNormal>> x3d</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> hanim will not be a waste of time. X3d hanim still documents an industry</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> standard approach where inputs were taken from all major toolmakers</p><p class=MsoNormal>> because</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> strangely, even back in the late 1990’s there was great input from users</p><p class=MsoNormal>> to</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> the biggies that they had to allow data to be exported and transported</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> between applications. Only the names were changed to prevent favoritism</p><p class=MsoNormal>> and</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> preserve innocence – ooh, and to bring the secretive data structures and</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> bindings out into the open.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Ok. I will say that the HAnim prototypes which do not need scripts</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> should be possible, even straightforward to port to x3dom and probably</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> x_ite native nodes. John's protoexpander probably already could deal</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> with those. So the main challenge probably really is the GPU based</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> vertex displacing.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Is there any use in having the Grouping/Transform type HAnim nodes only ?</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Best, -Andreas</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 10:42 AM, Joseph D Williams</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> <joedwil@earthlink.net> wrote:</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> both X3DOM and X_ITE …</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> The discussions about both X3DOM and X_ITE are, to me, missing a very</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> important feature. Neither of these tools can do HAnim skeleton</p><p class=MsoNormal>> controlled</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> deformable skin. This is a very important feature, lending itself to</p><p class=MsoNormal>> many</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> important applications in addition to HAnim. There have been several</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> discussions about the hanim joint(s) to deformable skin bindings and as</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> far</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> as I have seen, there is no doubt that the way x3d specifies the basic,</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> most</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> simple, and most transportable technique to achieve the result. So, as</p><p class=MsoNormal>> the</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> HAnim standard takes the next step, why not move a bit toward</p><p class=MsoNormal>> implementing</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> this important capability in your browsers. BSContact does it, I think</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Instant does it mostly but x3dom and x_ite don’t.</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Thanks and Best,</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>> --</p><p class=MsoNormal>> Leonard Daly</p><p class=MsoNormal>> 3D Systems & Cloud Consultant</p><p class=MsoNormal>> LA ACM SIGGRAPH Past Chair</p><p class=MsoNormal>> President, Daly Realism - Creating the Future</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>-- </p><p class=MsoNormal>Andreas Plesch</p><p class=MsoNormal>Waltham, MA 02453</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________</p><p class=MsoNormal>x3d-public mailing list</p><p class=MsoNormal>x3d-public@web3d.org</p><p class=MsoNormal>http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>